The Television Thread

[Jordan Cole]

This seems like an extreme stretch to me. Were criticisms of Lost really spearheaded by Dawkins and Hitchens fanatics? I’m not a religious person, but I certainly don’t reject art which takes a spiritual perspective. When I say the show felt like it came down to heavily on the side of faith, I mean that it sacrificed nuance in favour of a big emotional gesture.

I think Dom is stretching too, but to try to take it sincerely, I myself was in a viewing party where one guy was particularly irritated that it boiled down to what seemed like a religious/spiritual take, as opposed to science fiction. His love of sci-fi is what made him annoyed, and it's probably not any other reason but that (btw: the rest of us all LOVED it.) But there is a "religion is corny/dumb/evil" mindset among the youth (that I tend to agree with) that could have swayed opinions into wanting something a little more...cool? Less conservative? But I agree more with you, that criticisms of the LOST finale are more multifaceted and possibly mostly in regard to tone rather than "I'm an atheist so I don't want to see the afterlife", which is an absurd proposition, and nobody I know who is an atheist (meaning almost EVERYBODY I know) has any distaste for spiritual/afterlife stories. In fact we all love that stuff.

 

[Dom]

This seems like an extreme stretch to me. Were criticisms of Lost really spearheaded by Dawkins and Hitchens fanatics? I’m not a religious person, but I certainly don’t reject art which takes a spiritual perspective. When I say the show felt like it came down to heavily on the side of faith, I mean that it sacrificed nuance in favour of a big emotional gesture.

I wasn't saying it was the only criticism, far from it. My bad writing. Sorry. But I read quite a few very angry pieces at the time on Lost, Galactica and Ashes to Ashes that were outraged that the supernatural was involved. Galactica came in for particular flak, even though the Cylon 'God' of Galactica was ambiguous at best (I often pointed out the Ship of Lights in original series - just because we didn't see it in the new version didn't mean it wasn't there). Ashes to Ashes, I admit was a bit disappointing, because it was just too obvious that it was in the afterlife and I'd hoped to be surprised and find out there was something more (I suspect the cancelled third show, Lazarus, might have expanded on things.)

But Lost was always in a 'twilight zone' between superstition and science, so I never understood that line of criticism. The reason I mentioned the hardcore atheist mob is that quite a few of the outraged people I was on forums talking with back then actually had links fixed to their posts pointing to the likes of The God Delusion and God is Not Great on Amazon (I promise I'm not making that up!) and the majority were in agreement with them!! 'Goddidit' was their favourite mocking term to use for the attack. If I pointed out that events in these shows were ambiguous at best, I was told they shouldn't be! I also had dogmatically atheist friends in the real world who were outraged by the ending of Lost, saying it was the biggest waste of time they'd ever devoted to a TV show. I kept on pointing out that the series wasn't all a delusion in Jack's dying mind, but they were still damning and insisted the series ended the way it did because everyone died in the plane crash in the first and they all went to Heaven, which was twee.

Needless to say, I decided there wasn't much point in engaging with such people. They were so dogmatic, so certain, so angry! I don't post anywhere but here now. I'm too old for all that shit!

I'm perfectly prepared to accept ambiguity. I fear the internet age with its 'Wikia' culture has enforced a need certainty among some people. I'm not one of them. Ultimately, a spade is a spade, but does it have one or two coats of gold paint?

Like I say, on that island, was someone we'd seen die, but apparently reanimated, a ghost or a 'recording' (akin to Altered Carbon) being projected somehow? It's what I love about Lost. Put it this way, when I was growing up, there was a game I loved on the ZX Spectrum called Atic Atac. You would play a character trapped in a spooky, haunted castle. You had to go through the various levels to pick up three parts of a key in order to escape. Now, you could, actually, if you knew what you were doing, find the key parts and get out of the castle having only explored about 50 per cent of the castle. There was 50 per cent you hadn't explored with lots more secret rooms and gadgets.

That's how Lost feels to me: some of the surviving characters got away for good (we assume) in the main timeline of the final part, but there was still much we didn't know about the island, we don't know what happened to all the characters, we don't know what happened to them all next. Walt's brief appearance implies that he, Ben, Hurley and others will go back. As far as I'm concerned, Lost season 20 is happening now. We just don't have it on our screens anymore.

Gosh! Y'know all this talk about Lost makes me want to dig it out and start watching it again. I've got two thirds on DVD and a third on Blu-ray, all in soft wallet cases. I might have to look at getting the complete Blu-ray collection!! Only the best for my 4K TV!

 

[Dom]

I think Dom is stretching too, but to try to take it sincerely, I myself was in a viewing party where one guy was particularly irritated that it boiled down to what seemed like a religious/spiritual take, as opposed to science fiction. His love of sci-fi is what made him annoyed, and it's probably not any other reason but that (btw: the rest of us all LOVED it.) But there is a "religion is corny/dumb/evil" mindset among the youth (that I tend to agree with) that could have swayed opinions into wanting something a little more...cool? Less conservative?

I used to post more on science fiction forums, which is probably why I got that. One guy I was talking to in a pub one of my friends ran threw a proper strop about Galactica and Lost and religion. When the chef who was hanging out with us mentioned his wife was a Catholic he was bluntly told she shouldn't be! All this because I said I liked Lost and Galactica and liked the endings. These things stick in your memory!

But I agree more with you, that criticisms of the LOST finale are more multifaceted and possibly mostly in regard to tone rather than "I'm an atheist so I don't want to see the afterlife", which is an absurd proposition, and nobody I know who is an atheist (meaning almost EVERYBODY I know) has any distaste for spiritual/afterlife stories. In fact we all love that stuff.

Thing is, I didn't see much 'religious' stuff as such in Lost. It was mythological, which applies to the whole Western canon. For all that there was a church at the end of Lost, the island was the sort of place Odysseus, Jason or Aeneas could have washed up on. The strange beings and events on the island could have come from the writings of Virgil or Herodotus or, indeed, from the Old Testament.

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

It's funny, as an avowed atheist myself, I loved the Lost finale immediately. Just because I don't personally believe in an afterlife doesn't mean I can't appreciate the beauty of the concept in a fantasy context. But then, I've also always found myself loving and identifying strongly with John Locke, even though I'm realistically much more of a skeptical Jack. As Jordan says, it's more about mythology, and I would also add to some extent spiritualism, than religion, even if trappings of religion are used sometimes. I think that maybe part of the reason I connect so deeply with the show's approach to faith, despite my own hang-ups and beliefs, is that Lindelof was somewhat coming from a similar place of conflict to Jack. He's made no secret of the fact that much of Lost was him working through the death of his father and the lack of resolution there. It was a complex relationship, and a part of the puzzle that Lindelof has mentioned is that his dad was an atheist and discouraged religion in the household, which I believe led to Lindelof's strong interest (some might say obsession) with religious and spiritual themes in his work. (When I first read that he was writing a show about a nun who fights A.I., my first thought was, "Well, that's the most Damon Lindelof elevator pitch imaginable.")

Anyway, a couple of other quick points: Lindelof has since said he regrets setting the ending in a Christian church. And while I agree with him, as it tips the scales too much towards one specific ideology/iconography, I still love the scene as it is. And it also has resonance because it's the church that Dharma used to find the Island, so it acts as a symbol of the thing that brought them all together.

And it is absolutely mind-blowing how many of the people who hate the finale STILL believe that the entire show took place in purgatory. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate reasons to dislike the finale (WorldFarAway makes some compelling arguments). But of the people I see online to this day who have bad things to say about it, the vast majority of them either clearly haven't seen it at all or fundamentally misunderstood it.

 

[Dom]

And it is absolutely mind-blowing how many of the people who hate the finale STILL believe that the entire show took place in purgatory. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate reasons to dislike the finale (WorldFarAway makes some compelling arguments). But of the people I see online to this day who have bad things to say about it, the vast majority of them either clearly haven't seen it at all or fundamentally misunderstood it.

I love the ending of Lost. I have no problem with the Christian iconography, because we've had plenty of different mythological imagery throughout the series. It's a mythological series and that particular church has significance. And Jack's Dad - called Christian - is the one who managed to meet other people from the series before the plane crash and ultimately takes them to wherever they're going. Heaven? The island? Another dimension? The past?

I keep telling people that the events on the island really happened, that it wasn't Purgatory, that it wasn't Jack from episode one lying in the jungle, dying, imagining it all, but they won't listen. Like I say, one guy I know says he wasted years watching (and enjoying) Lost, because the ending showed they'd all died in the plane crash.

I think it touches on something key, though: fantasy and science fiction series that cross over into the mainstream will always struggle in the long run, because a section of the audience don't know how to dream and don't want to use their imaginations. It's people who want TV for its soporific aspects, laying everything out for them so they can 'switch off their brains'. Harlan Ellison's brilliant introduction to his book Strange Wine discusses exactly that.

Twin Peaks is a prime example of a series that suffered from the mainstream audience opting out. Mainstream audiences initially latched on to the detective mystery element and thought the quirky fantasy aspect was background fun. But when it became more... baroque, the people who were into fantasy and arthouse remained and the rest of the audience shook their heads, said it was 'weird' and went back to Matlock!

Network TV is inherently 'safe'. It can be offbeat and gritty, but only within a certain limited framework for the comfort of network audiences who will see the commercials in the breaks. For all that, say, True Detective or Fargo get decent viewing figures for niche cable channels or streaming services, there's a bigger section of the audience that needs something more structured or formulaic such as Law & Order and wouldn't look at the former series. They need to know 'whodunnit' definitively. They need whoever is the detective to arrest the perp and see the perp definitively put behind bars without suggestions of demonic entities above convenience stores and whether or not the demon is a metaphor.

Lost was a crossover series and managed to survive on a network, because the initial hook was a bunch of people surviving a plane crash on a deserted island, which is a familiar, safe drama concept. As is often the case, the fantasy elements build across the first season, which some of the audience will love from the outset, others will adapt to and the rest will give up and go back to something more conventional. Lost was lucky to get a reduced-length three season deal in advance to wrap things up. Fringe, on the other hand was a yearly 'handcramp' for fans crossing fingers as far as they could be crossed, hoping that it would get renewed.

I'm one of those fans who watches and rewatches episodes and loves to discuss aspects of a series, speculating on what's going on. I read spin off novels and novelisations and series guides, including behind-the-scenes books. Many people I know hate all that. They want their programme which they'll 'watch' for an hour while looking at their smartphone, not caring if they miss something. They're the people Harlan Ellison detested.

 

[Jordan Cole]

I keep telling people that the events on the island really happened, that it wasn't Purgatory, that it wasn't Jack from episode one lying in the jungle, dying, imagining it all, but they won't listen. Like I say, one guy I know says he wasted years watching (and enjoying) Lost, because the ending showed they'd all died in the plane crash.

This guy you know may be confused by the after-credits bit at the end of the LOST finale, which was some sort of slow camera zoom out that showed the plane wreckage. A bizarre, confusing move from the show that made TONS of people think what was being signaled was "gotcha! This all never happened." Now personally, I don't even understand how one makes that leap from plane wreckage to that, but I did see it happen with a lot of people.

 

[Dom]

This guy you know may be confused by the after-credits bit at the end of the LOST finale, which was some sort of slow camera zoom out that showed the plane wreckage. A bizarre, confusing move from the show that made TONS of people think what was being signaled was "gotcha! This all never happened." Now personally, I don't even understand how one makes that leap from plane wreckage to that, but I did see it happen with a lot of people.

I think it was more than that. He took them all 'ascending' (or whatever) and Jack's eye closing and decided that it was Jack in the first scene of the series closing his eyes.

 

[WorldFarAway]

What were everyone's thoughts on Mrs. Davis? I found some of the zanier humour a bit grating, particular in the episode set in Scotland, but Betty Gilpin was terrific and the whole season was full of great ideas. Very Lindelof as Mr. Reindeer said (one could cynically say that the show's handling of Jesus felt like someone had asked an Mrs. Davis to come up with a Damon Lindelof conceit), but I felt the finale pulled things together in a really satisfying way. Despite my reservations about some of the comedy, the central joke about Mrs. Davis's origin was very funny indeed.

It's strange considering the controversial nature of the Lost ending, but Lindelof has an excellent track record when it comes to season enders - Lost season 1, 2, 3 and 5 are all have particularly good finales, as do all 3 seasons of the Leftovers. It's a shame that Watchmen concluded in such an underwhelming way, but that's a whole other conversation..

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

What were everyone's thoughts on Mrs. Davis? I found some of the zanier humour a bit grating, particular in the episode set in Scotland, but Betty Gilpin was terrific and the whole season was full of great ideas. Very Lindelof as Mr. Reindeer said (one could cynically say that the show's handling of Jesus felt like someone had asked an Mrs. Davis to come up with a Damon Lindelof conceit), but I felt the finale pulled things together in a really satisfying way. Despite my reservations about some of the comedy, the central joke about Mrs. Davis's origin was very funny indeed.

I really enjoyed it. Definitely a more minor, lightweight work than The Leftovers or Lost or even Watchmen, but just so audacious and fun and unapologetically batshit crazy while still engaging with some important and provocative ideas.

 

[AXX°N N.]

I can recognize the validity of complaints re: Lost's ending but personally, emotionally, it always instantly resonated with me. I'm a hardcore agnostic (ha) and I take afterlife depictions in media as being somewhat like speculative fiction of another kind, and I'm a huge sucker for 'em. Other comparisons I can name are all anime (in fact, it's a running joke with a friend of mine that Lost is my favorite anime, and TV Tropes categorizes the ending as an example of a "Gainax ending," the anime studio being the trope namer), the best example of which would be Tomino's (of Gundam fame) Ideon, specifically the ending of the film versions. There's just something about the emotional tone that gets to me. I suppose that's the inherent appeal in actual religion, but as a non-religious person I've only felt it through media--it's a kind of ontological optimism. When I watch LOST I look forward to the characters, nostalgia, sweeping moments ... but I'm also eager to once again get to the ending, and the feelings it inspires in me--it's indelible, to see this specific feeling acted out cathartically. It's also somehow a perfect last question proposed by the mystery show. What's after the end? What if there's more after life, and how would the resultant necessary aversion, regret and relief manifest? LOST imagines what that might be like for me and it conjures a mix of emotions I'm glad to feel. I can understand those who dislike it exactly because it's just such a sweet notion or gesture toward the characters, but I fail to imagine a better capstone.

Also, it's worth noting there is a gesture toward the non-denominational: the church's stain-glass windows contain iconography of the world's major religions, Western and Eastern.

 

[WorldFarAway]

Your thoughts remind me of how I feel about the divisive ending to the Tree of Life. Maybe that works better for me because the film takes the form of one character’s subjective experience of the world, which is basically indistinguishable from the author’s. When it comes to Lost, I feel that when you have such a large array of characters with different perspectives that it slightly flattens them to throw them so many of them into this kind of ecstatic redemptive ending. Laura’s ending in Fire Walk With Me is perfect, but it wouldn’t resonate for me if all the characters were in the red room, staring at their own angels.

 

[Jordan Cole]

Your thoughts remind me of how I feel about the divisive ending to the Tree of Life. Maybe that works better for me because the film takes the form of one character’s subjective experience of the world, which is basically indistinguishable from the author’s. When it comes to Lost, I feel that when you have such a large array of characters with different perspectives that it slightly flattens them to throw them so many of them into this kind of ecstatic redemptive ending. Laura’s ending in Fire Walk With Me is perfect, but it wouldn’t resonate for me if all the characters were in the red room, staring at their own angels.

I get this but I also don't get this, because I thought the entire idea there was like no matter who you are, this is where it's all going, and "live together or die alone" (or "die together"??) I could even see the Twin Peaks version of that. And that the people you shared experiences with, even if not consciously your best friends, you have some mystic ties to them that mean something, and yes that works on a meta level but also it works in the world of the show too. I mean in a weird way when I do take a plane somewhere, even though I don't know anyone else, you do have that weird trapped in a sardine can feeling of like "these people are who I might die with??" I feel like LOST is inspired by that feeling. There is a strange closeness of being on a plane, even though personally, I usually detest everybody around me because people act fucking annoying as hell on planes. I don't think the show is asking you to accept these people mean something to EACH OTHER, but just that they're all connected somehow in ways we still don't fully understand, whether they feel that or not.

I know a common complaint was Sayid's love of his life from his flashbacks isn't in the church but Shannon is there for him. I mean, I get the complaint, but it seems to be missing the point that the island experience is intended to be uniquely intensely singular and special that it overrides the crap they dealt with before heading over there. I mean it's kind of how you feel when you take a really short but fun-packed vacation, it remains in your memory so much longer than the typical days of your life do. And yeah I could see the show patting itself on the back like that ("wasn't this show great???") can rub some the wrong way but I don't have a problem with it. Take the pat.

 

[WorldFarAway]

It’s funny being the main Lost critic on this thread, as I’m always a Lost defender when talking to friends. I even like a lot of the finale, and perhaps some of my criticisms would be softened by a second viewing. Your interpretation of the ending makes a lot of sense Jordan, but the show’s perspective just doesn’t align with reality for me. Some people do choose to die alone rather than live together, and even those with faith can place faith in the wrong things. Locke’s ending in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham was way more poignant to me than his reunion with Jack in the church. So much of Lindelof’s skill as a writer lies in how he depicts characters imposing their own meta-narratives onto the world, but by the end of Lost I felt that everyone had more or less become John Locke. I would have liked an ending which dealt with more varied and complicated emotions, rather than just going for Giacchino-fuelled catharsis.

 

[AXX°N N.]

Some people do choose to die alone rather than live together, and even those with faith can place faith in the wrong things.

Isn't that fact retained by the decision to have Ben not pass on with everyone else? I suppose the suggestion is he's not ready to depart from the fantasy yet, or will try to process his guilt and seek forgiveness from Alex and move on with her and her mother ... however, you could also take it as him opting to do it solo. Hurley's reaction seems disappointed, but not surprised. You could say that it's only logical Ben wasn't as close as everyone else was as fellow survivors ... but he spent potentially decades with Hurley. So the choice is still pointed.

Either way, it shows that the writers made a decision that including Ben, or more like, including literally everyone available, would lack in nuance.

 

[WorldFarAway]

Good point. It felt like a bit of a token gesture to me, but perhaps in accusing the writers of flattening out the show’s nuance I’m guilty of doing the same.

 

[LateReg]

It’s funny being the main Lost critic on this thread, as I’m always a Lost defender when talking to friends. I even like a lot of the finale, and perhaps some of my criticisms would be softened by a second viewing. Your interpretation of the ending makes a lot of sense Jordan, but the show’s perspective just doesn’t align with reality for me. Some people do choose to die alone rather than live together, and even those with faith can place faith in the wrong things. Locke’s ending in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham was way more poignant to me than his reunion with Jack in the church. So much of Lindelof’s skill as a writer lies in how he depicts characters imposing their own meta-narratives onto the world, but by the end of Lost I felt that everyone had more or less become John Locke. I would have liked an ending which dealt with more varied and complicated emotions, rather than just going for Giacchino-fuelled catharsis.

I think it is partly that...people don't really have a choice in the end, metaphysically speaking. It takes some longer to get there (like Ben), but according to the show's philosophy, we all return to the light eventually. The goal is the light and I think most of them came to understand that through their experience on the island.

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

Isn't that fact retained by the decision to have Ben not pass on with everyone else? I suppose the suggestion is he's not ready to depart from the fantasy yet, or will try to process his guilt and seek forgiveness from Alex and move on with her and her mother ... however, you could also take it as him opting to do it solo. Hurley's reaction seems disappointed, but not surprised. You could say that it's only logical Ben wasn't as close as everyone else was as fellow survivors ... but he spent potentially decades with Hurley. So the choice is still pointed.

Either way, it shows that the writers made a decision that including Ben, or more like, including literally everyone available, would lack in nuance.

What I love about those Ben scenes in the finale (and I'm biased because he's my favorite character) is that we're led to believe he acted as Hurley's second-in-command for a good long time. Decades, centuries, millennia? No way of knowing. But we love Hurley, we trust Hurley, and Hurley says that Ben was "a real good Number Two." So Ben redeemed himself in life, or at least made as good an effort as possible given all the monstrous things he'd done. But Ben still can't forgive himself. That's the moment for me where Lindelof's conception of the Bardo state really comes through: these people are acting as their own judges. The true challenge of the flash sideways world is for them to make peace with their own choices, and Ben can't do it. Maybe he eventually will, maybe he won't. The same is true for Michael, who is distinctly absent. Does he just have to go on his own journey separate from the rest of the 815 survivors to make peace with his horrible sins, or is he incapable of it? We're left to wonder.

I can see to some extent where WorldFarAway is coming from. Some of the choices of who is / isn't in the church are questionable. Is Penny really all that close to these people when (aside from Desmond obviously) she's only spent like a week with a few of them on a boat? Wouldn't Desmond and Penny's son be an important part of their afterlife journey? Why is Sayid with Shannon and not with Nadia? There's some wonky stuff there for sure, but it's obviously filtered through Jack's perspective and the overall emotion of it just flows through me every time. And yes, Giacchino is obviously a huge part of that.

 

[Jordan Cole]

What I love about those Ben scenes in the finale (and I'm biased because he's my favorite character) is that we're led to believe he acted as Hurley's second-in-command for a good long time. Decades, centuries, millennia? No way of knowing. But we love Hurley, we trust Hurley, and Hurley says that Ben was "a real good Number Two."

This was like my FAVORITE thing in the finale and honestly, anything else could have happened and I'd still love the episode because of that.

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

This was like my FAVORITE thing in the finale and honestly, anything else could have happened and I'd still love the episode because of that.

I can’t watch those scenes or even think about them without crying. Emerson is so damn good.

 

[Jordan Cole]

I can’t watch those scenes or even think about them without crying. Emerson is so damn good.

I did a background acting job (I forget if I mentioned I do that) with him on this show he was in called Evil. I was just utterly star struck the entire time. He seemed nice and he smiled at me as we both go through a court house door together in the shot. I wanted to talk to him so bad but you're just super not allowed to do that, plus it can be rude and distracting for them.

My wife saw him walking around in Brooklyn once and I think even said hi to him.

For me Lost, and even something like X-Files isn't so much about everything tying together in the big picture but incredible moments like that. I really mean almost anything could have happened in that final episode. Just give me some amazing final character moments and I'm happy. I'm the same way, got misty eyed just thinking about him sitting outside that church.

If anyone hasn't watched it, Person of Interest is an incredible show, starring Emerson. The thing is it takes a solid 2 and a half seasons or so where you'd be able to tell why someone would recommend it. Before that it's a fairly generic case of the week show with a sci-fi twist. But it builds up to something fantastic and exciting and once you're in the final two seasons it's a rollercoaster worthy of some of the greats.