The Film Thread

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
545
539
Showgirls is a great film! It was wildly misunderstood. I've always thought that Showgirls is to Footloose what Starship Troopers is to the typical American blockbuster. Both are savage satires on American values from a European outsider. I saw a new print of Showgirls in Paris a few years back as part of a Paul Verhoeven retrospective.
I can definitely see hints of interesting stuff in Showgirls, but it just loses all focus for me by the final act. If I could remember it better I might be able to cite specific scenes and moments here, lol.
 

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
545
539
I saw Showgirls not that long ago, and I enjoyed it very much. It's not a good film in the usual sense of the word, but it has a certain feel and aesthetics that make it unique and quite memorable. There's also You Don't Nomi, a 2019 documentary about the film that's interesting and worth watching.

However, I think that Elizabeth Berkley was horrible. And the pool sex scene... I don't even know what to think of that. Definitely much more grotesque than the Cooper/Diane scene at the end of The Return.
I'm going to wager a guess that Kyle's character's almost mechanized thrusting is symbolic of the impersonal nature of the Vegas performance industry. But who knows, maybe there's isn't an un-awkward way to do pool sex?
 

Stavrogyn

White Lodge
Apr 12, 2022
675
547
But who knows, maybe there's isn't an un-awkward way to do pool sex?
Sadly, I wouldn't know myself. But her behaviour in that scene is more baffling than Kyle's: she keeps splashing the water with her back so intensely that the scene loses every bit of eroticism it might have had - it's so grotesque that it becomes funny.
 

MasterMastermnd

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
370
531
I think with Showgirls people at the time thought they were getting Basic Instinct Verhoeven but they were actually getting Starship Troopers Verhoeven
 

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
545
539
I think with Showgirls people at the time thought they were getting Basic Instinct Verhoeven but they were actually getting Starship Troopers Verhoeven
I've somehow managed to go through life without ever watching Basic Instinct. I feel like 90s erotic thrillers can come across as trying too hard to be risque at times.. That being said, I've lost count of how many times I've viewed Single White Female.
 

4815162342

RR Diner
May 24, 2022
28
31
Personally, I think Berkeley has a bit of the first 2/3 of Mulholland Drive Naomi Watts super naive and earnest thing happening. Similarly to that film, her character is revealed to have a dark past.
 

Dom

White Lodge
Jul 10, 2022
654
667
Showgirls is a great film! It was wildly misunderstood. I've always thought that Showgirls is to Footloose what Starship Troopers is to the typical American blockbuster. Both are savage satires on American values from a European outsider. I saw a new print of Showgirls in Paris a few years back as part of a Paul Verhoeven retrospective.
Yes, I can't believe how many people took Starship Troopers at face value as an action film. I'd say to people 'You do realise this is a spoof, right?' and they'd look at me blankly. Then again, I know people who completely miss the satire in Robocop and just think it's a very violent action drama! I love the film. You can sense Paul Verhoeven's sadistic glee in showing monsters tearing all those perfect, all-American, capped tooth, plastic surgery-enhanced soap opera actors and actresses to bits. And Doogie Howser as a space Gestapo officer was hilarious!
I'm going to wager a guess that Kyle's character's almost mechanized thrusting is symbolic of the impersonal nature of the Vegas performance industry. But who knows, maybe there's isn't an un-awkward way to do pool sex?
I remember Verhoeven talking about that scene. He's laughing uncontrollably, roaring about about how he wanted Elizabeth Berkley's boobs bouncing more and more!! Reportedly, he was having an affair with her during he shoot.
I've somehow managed to go through life without ever watching Basic Instinct. I
You should definitely see it. The new Blu-ray and 4K release looks stunning too. There's been a bit of controversy about the colour grade being modified for this remaster, but, as someone who has seen the film a number of times going back to the original cinema release, I think this is the best the film has ever looked and the new colour grade is perfect.

I've got Verhoeven's Benedetta arriving in the next week or so. Can't wait to see what the old roué's going to do with the nunsploitation genre!
 

baxter

Great Northern Hotel
Apr 12, 2022
61
60
I saw Benedetta in the cinema here in Australia. Absolute peak Verhoeven! You are in for a treat.

Supposedly, Elizabeth Berkeley's odd and histrionic performance was directed very carefully. She's an excellent actress, and was following directions. Then she got blamed for it being over the top.

I've read hilarious US reviews of Starship Troopers that find the film fascist. That's the whole point - the original novel was deeply fascist with no irony (I've never read it), and the film uses that to critique American foreign policy, but packs it with chiselled hunks so it slips through the net. Showgirls is really similar to me - it takes the American dream/American success story and makes everything about it tawdry, worthless and horrible. A deeply cynical film, and not a million miles from something like Herzog's Stroszek (just far, far more entertaining :-D ).
 

baxter

Great Northern Hotel
Apr 12, 2022
61
60
Personally, I think Berkeley has a bit of the first 2/3 of Mulholland Drive Naomi Watts super naive and earnest thing happening. Similarly to that film, her character is revealed to have a dark past.
Have never noticed this, but I agree. Both performances have something surreal and odd about them - both clearly intended to point to something below the surface.
 

Dom

White Lodge
Jul 10, 2022
654
667
I saw Benedetta in the cinema here in Australia. Absolute peak Verhoeven! You are in for a treat.

Supposedly, Elizabeth Berkeley's odd and histrionic performance was directed very carefully. She's an excellent actress, and was following directions. Then she got blamed for it being over the top.

I've read hilarious US reviews of Starship Troopers that find the film fascist. That's the whole point - the original novel was deeply fascist with no irony (I've never read it), and the film uses that to critique American foreign policy, but packs it with chiselled hunks so it slips through the net. Showgirls is really similar to me - it takes the American dream/American success story and makes everything about it tawdry, worthless and horrible. A deeply cynical film, and not a million miles from something like Herzog's Stroszek (just far, far more entertaining :-D ).
Looking forward to Benedetta. I've read a couple of brief articles, but I'm buying it blind because I like Verhoeven's work.

And yes, as I say, Showgirls, as a book, could easily get published by the Hard Case Crime label. It's basically a pulp novel put onscreen, as are Jagged Edge and Basic Instinct.

To give the book Starship Troopers its due, it's not fascist at all: that's a rather unfair smear that's been allowed to proliferate ever since the film came out and that's put some people off reading it. I have read it (first time, before the film.) Robert Heinlein was actually strongly libertarian and anti-Big Government, which is nothing close to the big state fascism portrayed in the film. The book is mostly about training for the mission, then the mission itself, from a solider's point of view, so it's actually quite technical, which is where the oft-commented-on lack of irony comes from. The book isn't post-modern, thank God! It's been hugely influential on the portrayal of the future military in science fiction ever since it was published.

The film was actually based on an unrelated black comedy screenplay, but the studio had the rights to the book and asked that the characters and settings be modified to match Heinlein's book as a selling point, but otherwise the two are essentially unrelated. The best comparison here is to imagine someone takes a David Lynch screenplay for season four of Twin Peaks and renames the characters and modifies the settings to make it a new Peyton Place series instead.

If you want a more accurate screen adaptation of the Starship Troopers book, you're actually better off watching James Cameron's Aliens, which is heavily influenced by Heinlein's Starship Troopers. And the Starship Troopers cartoon series was also closer to the novel, I believe, while still using designs from the film. It's worth a read, as it's only a short book. If you like science fiction, you should check it out. :)
 

baxter

Great Northern Hotel
Apr 12, 2022
61
60
Looking forward to Benedetta. I've read a couple of brief articles, but I'm buying it blind because I like Verhoeven's work.

And yes, as I say, Showgirls, as a book, could easily get published by the Hard Case Crime label. It's basically a pulp novel put onscreen, as are Jagged Edge and Basic Instinct.

To give the book Starship Troopers its due, it's not fascist at all: that's a rather unfair smear that's been allowed to proliferate ever since the film came out and that's put some people off reading it. I have read it (first time, before the film.) Robert Heinlein was actually strongly libertarian and anti-Big Government, which is nothing close to the big state fascism portrayed in the film. The book is mostly about training for the mission, then the mission itself, from a solider's point of view, so it's actually quite technical, which is where the oft-commented-on lack of irony comes from. The book isn't post-modern, thank God! It's been hugely influential on the portrayal of the future military in science fiction ever since it was published.

The film was actually based on an unrelated black comedy screenplay, but the studio had the rights to the book and asked that the characters and settings be modified to match Heinlein's book as a selling point, but otherwise the two are essentially unrelated. The best comparison here is to imagine someone takes a David Lynch screenplay for season four of Twin Peaks and renames the characters and modifies the settings to make it a new Peyton Place series instead.

If you want a more accurate screen adaptation of the Starship Troopers book, you're actually better off watching James Cameron's Aliens, which is heavily influenced by Heinlein's Starship Troopers. And the Starship Troopers cartoon series was also closer to the novel, I believe, while still using designs from the film. It's worth a read, as it's only a short book. If you like science fiction, you should check it out. :)
So I was totally wrong! Thanks for the correction, and I'll check it out. There is a superb scifi bookshop nearby that usually has a copy.
 

everylittlestar

RR Diner
Apr 16, 2022
21
63
Personally, I think Berkeley has a bit of the first 2/3 of Mulholland Drive Naomi Watts super naive and earnest thing happening. Similarly to that film, her character is revealed to have a dark past.
i think its worth pointing out that Rena Riffel, who was in both Mulholland Drive and Showgirls, directed her own low-budget "sequel" to Showgirls in 2011, which a lot of people have described as a loose remake of both Showgirls and Mulholland Drive. I havent seen it myself, since it doesn't sound very good (and this is coming from someone who unabashedly loves the OG Showgirls), but its interesting to think Rena picked up on some things from working with Lynch and at least tried to incorporate them into the production. No Kyle in it, tho :(
 

MasterMastermnd

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
370
531
Caught a movie called The Visitor last night. It was playing at the Esquire, which is a 100 year old arthouse in Cincinnati. It's an Italian sci-fi/horror film from 1978 and it's sheer chaos, weaving back and forth between Wiseauean incompetent hilarity and exhilarating creative brilliance reminiscent of Argento and Lynch. It's essentially a bizarre mashup of The Omen, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and the gonzo creativity typical of giallo. It has a really good cast. John Huston, Shelley Winters, and Lance Henriksen are especially good. The kid is pretty good as well, weird she never acted again. Has anyone else seen/heard of this movie?
 

secretlettermkr

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
316
438
Caught a movie called The Visitor last night. It was playing at the Esquire, which is a 100 year old arthouse in Cincinnati. It's an Italian sci-fi/horror film from 1978 and it's sheer chaos, weaving back and forth between Wiseauean incompetent hilarity and exhilarating creative brilliance reminiscent of Argento and Lynch. It's essentially a bizarre mashup of The Omen, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and the gonzo creativity typical of giallo. It has a really good cast. John Huston, Shelley Winters, and Lance Henriksen are especially good. The kid is pretty good as well, weird she never acted again. Has anyone else seen/heard of this movie?
I HAVE THAT ON MY WATCH LIST AND KEEP DELAYING IT. I MAY PROJECT IT THIS WEEKEND
 

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
545
539
Caught a movie called The Visitor last night. It was playing at the Esquire, which is a 100 year old arthouse in Cincinnati. It's an Italian sci-fi/horror film from 1978 and it's sheer chaos, weaving back and forth between Wiseauean incompetent hilarity and exhilarating creative brilliance reminiscent of Argento and Lynch. It's essentially a bizarre mashup of The Omen, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and the gonzo creativity typical of giallo. It has a really good cast. John Huston, Shelley Winters, and Lance Henriksen are especially good. The kid is pretty good as well, weird she never acted again. Has anyone else seen/heard of this movie?
The Visitor is great! Love Shelly Winters in it.
 

saturn's child

RR Diner
Apr 17, 2022
43
66
Has anyone else seen/heard of this movie?
Yes, saw it a few years back: I remember it being very enjoyable, but I saw Messiah of Evil the same night (or maybe the next night?) & the latter film stuck / resonated with me more. Visitor is more slippery in my memory, I'll have to watch it again, I mainly remember some of the imagery (which was great).

Any Messiah of Evil fans here? RE: Twin Peaks, Royal Dano (aka Judge Sternwood) is in it. Awesome stuff, great moods, Lynchian at times.
 

MasterMastermnd

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
370
531
I haven't seen Messiah of Evil! I know it caught George Lucas' eye and the filmmakers were drafted to work on Indiana Jones and Howard the Duck but I never saw it. Great title, though!
 

secretlettermkr

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
316
438
just saw THE VISITOR, its messy, but I LOVED IT! Some aspects of it reminded me vaguely of Zulawsky's Masterpiece POSSESSION, and some other parts were reminiscent of Carpenter's PRINCE OF DARKNESS
 

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
545
539
just saw THE VISITOR, its messy, but I LOVED IT! Some aspects of it reminded me vaguely of Zulawsky's Masterpiece POSSESSION, and some other parts were reminiscent of Carpenter's PRINCE OF DARKNESS
Hopefully this Halloween I'll make it a point to finally watch Prince of Darkness. I also might track down Someone's Watching Me!, the TV movie Carpenter did around the time of the first Halloween.
 
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