The Film Thread

[Ickles]

Just to make everyone feel extra vindicated: I wholeheartedly agree about the new Dune. Just did not get the hype for it at all. Above all else it committed the cardinal sin of being painfully dull and lifeless. Nothing really popped or did much of anything for me. Lynch’s version is flawed and has plenty of issues itself but at least offers some genuinely inspired and visually stunning moments.

 

[Dougie Cooper]

Just to make everyone feel extra vindicated: I wholeheartedly agree about the new Dune. Just did not get the hype for it at all. Above all else it committed the cardinal sin of being painfully dull and lifeless. Nothing really popped or did much of anything for me. Lynch’s version is flawed and has plenty of issues itself but at least offers some genuinely inspired and visually stunning moments.

"painfully dull and lifeless . . . "

From the previous post where I echoed "much weaker" I will now add "dull and lifeless." Sums up my feelings perfectly.

I'm guessing that a poll of the general populace would vote for the newer film and thumbs down on Lynch's Dune, but I do wonder.

I'm not on Team Lynch's Dune as a fanboy either. I can imagine being accused of that (by people I know in private life), but that's simply not the case. I truly prefer Lynch's -- warts and all.

 

[Ickles]

I'm guessing that a poll of the general populace would vote for the newer film and thumbs down on Lynch's Dune, but I do wonder.

I'm not on Team Lynch's Dune as a fanboy either. I can imagine being accused of that (by people I know in private life), but that's simply not the case. I truly prefer Lynch's -- warts and all.

Based on the conversations I've had with folks who prefer the Villeneuve version it seems entirely script/story based, viewed from a very straightforward narrative standpoint. I have a friend who swears by the new version and even he admits Lynch's version has more filmmaking creativity and visual interest but he always comes back to "at least with the new one I understood the story and it's a better adapation." I can see preferring it as an adaptation of the source material, I suppose, but I've honestly never been that passionate or interested in the novels so have no skin in the game there.

 

[MasterMastermnd]

I like both versions but do think I prefer Villeneuve's. Has a certain cinematic weight due to the way it so gradually unfolds over time which I think plays well with that mix of operatic scope and spare minimalism. It has a few surrealist flourishes I also quite like, though nothing as brilliantly mad as Lynch's heart plugs. It does capture the essence of the story better. Lynch's is dragged down by Dino's insistence it be the next Star Wars, whereas Villeneuve more acutely captures Herbert's exploration of colonialism and Great Men of History.

 

[Stavrogyn]

What did everyone think of this year's Academy Awards?

So far I've seen only 6 of the 10 best picture nominees, but will comment nevertheless: despite the fact that I like that the Academy is becoming more open and inclusive, I think that for a millionth time, they gave the main award/s to the wrong film.

Even though, for the most part, I enjoyed Everything Everywhere All at Once, in the end, it felt like a glorified Marvel movie to me, closer to Guardians of the Galaxy than any other film nominated for best picture. And while it was certainly fun, I would never even think of nominating it in the first place, let alone awarding it. (Not to mention that the humor was mostly really juvenile, and I also don't get the whole fuss about it being original, quirky, or even complex...)

Maybe giving the main awards to EEAAO is a sign of our superhero-obsessed times? Maybe they just needed an excuse to throw awards at the closest thing that's not Marvel per se but wears a disguise of being unique and different?

I think I would have liked the film much more if it focused solely on the real-life drama of the main characters and their family.

In my opinion, Im Westen nichts Neues, Tár, and The Fabelmans were far superior, with the World War I epic still being my favorite. I would even say that Cronenberg's Crimes of the Future was a much better film than EEAAO or, let's say, Elvis, which, despite my love for Baz Luhrmann, I don't get how it got nominated at all.

I remember a time when there were only 5 best picture nominees. I think the nomination itself would be of much bigger importance and value if they went back to that. For example, I really liked Top Gun: Maverick, but there's no way that that film deserves a nomination for best picture.

And I'm glad that Michelle Yeoh won the award (she was really good in the film and awarding her was a big step for inclusivity as well), but in all fairness, it should have gone to Cate Blanchett.

 

[Agent Earle]

I only watched del Toro's Pinocchio and I'm glad that I did - it was truly a marvel and much more deserving of the Academy Award than The Shape of Water (that one was a big missfire for me). It's nice that it got the deserved recognition; it's director's best movie since Pan's Labyrinth in my opinion.

 

[Stavrogyn]

I just watched del Toro's Pinocchio and I'm glad that I did - it was truly a marvel and much more deserving of the Academy Award than The Shape of Water (that one was a big missfire for me).

I agree; I watched Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio for Christmas and now I already feel nostalgic about the holidays, partially thanks to that film.

I had some issues with it though: the story was too ridiculous for me (but it's based on a children's book, so I know I shouldn't complain), and the timeline confused me a lot, I don't think that they handled that perfectly. I couldn't make sense of when the story takes place and what does World War II have to do with it since the book was published at the end of the 19th century... I had to do some reading about the film afterward.

The Shape of Water is, on the other hand, one of those films I love to hate.

 

[Ickles]

EEA@O wasn't my favorite film of last year either but I don't mind that it won. I don't really consider the Oscars the best arbiter of taste, generally. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those cinephiles that has an axe to grind against them. I actually enjoy watching the ceremony every year but more as an excuse to have friends over and make some good food, enjoy some nice cocktails. The actual awards are rarely fully satisfying for me because I generally don't have the same taste as the wide variety of Oscar voters.

Considering movies like Crash and Green Book have won Best Picture though, they certainly could have done worse than EEA@O. I didn't absolutely love the film but I didn't hate it either. I think I gave it like 3 stars on my letterboxd rating. It had some moments in it I liked (the rock universe bit all done via subtitle, for example) and I agree the juvenile humor got old pretty quick. But considering what typically passes for "an Oscar film" I thought it was a fairly bold choice. No corny melodrama, no over-actors smashing plates against a wall, etc. Clearly my bar for a passable Oscar winner is low. Haha. But overall it was a decent ceremony that moved pretty quickly (not shoe-horning in a bunch of weird backstage or pre-taped comedy bit helped). I would have been more personally satisfied if "Tár" won probably, or better yet if "RRR" (my actual favorite film of 2022) was even nominated for anything besides Original Song but I learned to not care so much about the actual awards a long time ago (probably the year "Shakespeare in Love" won BP over "The Thin Red Line" )

 

[Stavrogyn]

I learned to not care so much about the actual awards a long time ago (probably the year "Shakespeare in Love" won BP over "The Thin Red Line" )

I thought you were going to say Saving Private Ryan (and that would also make sense), but while that film was really good as well, I consider The Thin Red Line much more powerful and beautiful.

I also have a sort of a theory that The Thin Red Line is more for people who like to intellectualize how it would look like fighting in a war - all the while waging its meaning, the meaning of life, and everything in between - while Saving Private Ryan is more for people who have actually fought in wars. At least I had people telling me that they related to it because it was quite authentic.

 

[Jordan Cole]

Oscar opinions, I got 'em all:

My issue with this year's oscars were more that the awards the movies were winning weren't right. Do I think EEAAO should win...something? Sure, I guess. But writing and editing? The dialogue and pacing are the two worst things about the film (especially the pacing/editing.) I would say it had impressive visual FX considering it was such a small team. I love Jamie Lee Curtis but I'm genuinely thrown by that Oscar win...for a goofy, cartoonish performance like that? I just don't get it.

(By the way, I never knew that if a movie is a sequel, it's automatically an adapted screenplay? Because it's based on the previous film...even though that was an original film?)

I agree that Blanchett should have won: that is what we call a powerhouse oscar-worthy performance. Fully inhabiting this complex, compelling character. It may be the best performance I've seen in years on the big screen. Yeoh is extremely likable and lovely, but was that an Oscar win because of the performance, the actual acting? I'm not sure.

I knew going in TAR would not win anything. It is because TAR is a cynical, ambiguous film with an unlikable (to some), snooty protagonist, and what the Oscars like is inspiring. They want stories about family and kindness and diversity and acceptance, and I knew EEAAO would sweep it, even though personally, I don't think it deserves those awards. Every single person I know, including me and my wife, who saw the film had the same reaction: "it was fun for a while, but it kept going. I was checked out by the last 30 minutes." That's...not something that should win Oscars for writing, directing, or best picture, or anything really. That's a flawed film. They hammer home the same jokes over and over until they are beyond unfunny. Bad writing! Bad editing!

I kept laughing at the reframing of films like Banshees and Fabelmans as "Oscar-y" movies in the montages. They aren't! Fabelmans seems like it would be, but it's weird and unsettling (though with Oscar-worthy cinematography, I'd say), Banshees is a dry, absurd Coen Brothers-y comedy (at least it was to me.) It reminded me, dialogue-wise, of the stuff me and my friends made in film school, really. I liked it a lot but I was pretty surprised it was even nominated.

Del Toro's Pinnochio was the only justified winner of the night. Truly an intense, beautifully made animated film. Faithful to the story yet boldly original and taking risks. Everyone should go to the Museum of Modern Art's exhibit where you can see all the sets, props and figures. Incredible.

We watched Elvis last night, and while I didn't like the movie, I was thinking maybe Austin Butler should have won over Brendan Frasier. The guy really did something incredible there. We plan to (reluctantly) watch The Whale sometime this week, but I'm dreading it.

I loved Top Gun: Maverick but this is a film that should win all the technical things (and it did win sound.) Stunts, FX, etc?? The writing was silly and the story was obviously nothing special...but as a cinematic experience it was exhilarating. Is there an award for that? I mean, maybe in a sense that does make it quite literally the Best Picture...as in we could not take our eyes off the screen and 2 hours flew by as fast as, well, a jet plane. That deserves something. I mean it is the polar opposite of our experience with EEAAO, where we started looking at the time to calculate when the film is finally going to end ("there's still 40 minutes left?!?")

The Oscars are as much about social and political posturing as anything (though it was thankfully toned a bit down this year compared to the last two or so years), so you know going in things like Black Panther and Women Talking are probably going to win, as well as immigrant/LGBT stories (two at once!) like EEAAO. TAR, depending on how you look at it, kind of spits on that very notion and so it never had a chance! Lydia Tar remains in hiding.

I'm a Black Panther comic book fan but the first film was a disappointing mess to me (and I haven't heard much good about the second one), but of course they're the only Marvel films to get Oscar recognition. I mean to be frank, I find it kind of infantilizing and hollow when this sort of thing happens, like a gold star or something, but I get it. I just wish an award was given to a film I truly feel deserves it. Moonlight was a good example, that was a powerful film and also progressive and diverse, and it got an award because it told a story really, really well. I suppose the Black Panther win for costumes is warranted, they do have to create a whole original culture.

And what THE FUCK was with All Quiet On The Western Front sweeping the awards?!? Did anyone even SEE that film? I never even heard of it until the ceremony! And while it looks like it's well made...it's just another war movie...? Do we even care anymore? We were sitting here just shocked and annoyed at this random war film taking all the prizes. So aggravating and weird!

As for the show itself, zzzz. Jimmy Kimmel is someone I like but he, for the most part, kept things extremely safe. We need a comedian who is willing to shock and piss people off. It wakes us up. The only victims are millionaire celebrities, who cares! Barely a laugh in his entire opening. The whole show was really dull. In a way I still find it kind of fun reveling in the dullness with my wife and a pizza we ordered, but there's just nothing to report back about. How were the Oscars? Eh, fine. I'm not saying you want a man to assault another man on stage, but some funny pieces or surprising celebrity appearances or something...? Just not one moment of interest all night. The In Memoriam was a huge step up from last year (what a disaster!), but they left out so many people...I mean Anne Heche?? What is the thinking there? Why not go like one more minute and fit in another 30 people? I'm a behind the scenes film crew person myself sometimes, but I'm still shocked when those people, some really low in the food chain, get a tribute on there over huge actors that everybody knows. It's genuinely baffling.

None of this is anything new. Every year Oscar gives awards to films I didn't like and ignores all my favorites. That's the way it goes.

 

[AXX°N N.]

Yep, I feel like there's this notion that awards are now some kind of spell that is slowly transforming hegemony, and that the world gets a little more healed each time a recipient of a certain race, gender or age range is no longer the first, second, or third instance but the fourth, fifth and sixth. What will the discourse look like once we've made up for lost time and given every single category of person enough awards? I'm left doubting whether or not there's ever an actual moving on point where these industries actually become meritorious.

It's sort of exhausting to hear on NPR statements like "it's great asians were so represented this year, but not enough black people were," without any hint of self-reflection that this discourse is forefronting race to a potentially deleterious degree. I don't think Hollywood or awards panels have ever been meritorious, so it's not some kind of mis-aimed criticism, but few people seem to be concerned that a discourse that forefronts race as the most relevant aspect of filmmaking isn't just replacing a problem with a tweak on the problem. It seems to me like it's just a differently-dressed perpetuation of a culture obsessed with reductive labels and tribalism. The actually significant thing, that these awards go to undeserving films for arbitrary reasons, doesn't seem to be changing in the least. Empty praises for producing schmaltz no longer being reserved just for straight white men isn't radical progress.

I think it's ignorant and offensive to claim we can just drop everything and begin living in some kind of idyllic post-racial world, but Hollywood superficiality needs to be treated for what it is even when new fake obstacles are erected dissuading everyone from doing so, like some gaudy hydra constantly figuring out how to sentamentalize and guilt-trip anyone who dares to detract. Burn Hollywood, burn!!!

 

[Cappy]

Re: Oscars

Jamie Lee Curtis thanking all the fans of her slasher flicks “genre films” for supporting her

I’m glad she won, but it just feels odd to hear the Scream Queen use that term. Perhaps this is a crude example, but that’s like going to a comic convention and Rob Liefield saying “glad you enjoyed my graphic novel Youngblood.”

 

[Agent Earle]

Re: Oscars

Jamie Lee Curtis thanking all the fans of her slasher flicks “genre films” for supporting her

I’m glad she won, but it just feels odd to hear the Scream Queen use that term. Perhaps this is a crude example, but that’s like going to a comic convention and Rob Liefield saying “glad you enjoyed my graphic novel Youngblood.”

Totally agree with you! Of course, let's not forget Curtis already gave these "genre movies" the shaft in the eighties when it was time for her to have a respectable career and only returned to them years later when her career didn't yield all the fruits she hoped it would and she find out her early fans were the best, most loyal fans an actor can hope for, not to mention the films she did with Carpenter (Halloween, The Fog) are, I think, the pinacle of cinema.
I know it's unpopular around these parts, but I can't help but be reminded by her behaviour of Kyle's years-long barely concealed wrinkling of the nose whenever Twin Peaks was mentioned. I bet he wouldn't remember would someone remind him of it these days when he's the biggest proponent this side of David Lynch.

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

Totally agree with you! Of course, let's not forget Curtis already gave these "genre movies" the shaft in the eighties when it was time for her to have a respectable career and only returned to them years later when her career didn't yield all the fruits she hoped it would and she find out her early fans were the best, most loyal fans an actor can hope for, not to mention the films she did with Carpenter (Halloween, The Fog) are, I think, the pinacle of cinema.
I know it's unpopular around these parts, but I can't help but be reminded by her behaviour of Kyle's years-long barely concealed wrinkling of the nose whenever Twin Peaks was mentioned. I bet he wouldn't remember would someone remind him of it these days when he's the biggest proponent this side of David Lynch.

I think Kyle very much remembers and acknowledges that period. I forget where, but I read an interview with him where he says he was somewhat spoiled and entitled early in his career and he regrets some of his behavior, whereas now he’s learned to be much more appreciative of the opportunities he’s had. I’m probably mangling his words, but that was the essence of it. I believe the interview was about TP, and I very much assumed that’s what he was talking about. It’s really remarkable what a gracious, decent-seeming guy he turned out to be once he got comfortable with fame.

 

[Agent Earle]

I think Kyle very much remembers and acknowledges that period. I forget where, but I read an interview with him where he says he was somewhat spoiled and entitled early in his career and he regrets some of his behavior, whereas now he’s learned to be much more appreciative of the opportunities he’s had. I’m probably mangling his words, but that was the essence of it. I believe the interview was about TP, and I very much assumed that’s what he was talking about. It’s really remarkable what a gracious, decent-seeming guy he turned out to be once he got comfortable with fame.

I'd be interested in hunting this interview down, it managed to bypass me somehow; that's really nice to hear (I don't have a reason to doubt what you say). I do agree about his graciousness and decency that are on display for a long time now.

 

[Cappy]

I’m probably misquoting a misquote here, but I recall Kyle’s reasoning for turning down a larger role in FWWM being he “didn’t want to turn into Captain Kirk.”

 

[Agent Earle]

What you just wrote ties neatly with what I was adding to my comment and I'm now posting separately:

I guess the sense of entitlement, a sort of snobbishness, if you will, is a rather common trait among younger actors fearing to be pigeonholed as a prototype of a certain iconic role that made them household names, forced into repeating it ad nauseam while their big, bright, successful career withers away around them. But with the passage of time and accumulation of life/professional experiences, they gradually come to realize that early signature role was actually a blessing, as good as they got it, and the most prominent thing they'll be remembered for, and start to cherish and promote it with relish. Rob Morrow of Northern Exposure fame would be another example of this that comes to mind.

P.S.: Yeah, Kyle's behaviour around FWWM back then was a big part of what I had in mind with the initial post; he practically oozed discomfort of being associated with this TP stuff (again). Of course, sour taste about how fast the TV series went down the drain and was turned from media darling into a steaming pile of excrement in the mainstream mind probably didn't help matters any.

 

[Jasper]

Regarding his small role in FWWM, Kyle also made this admission:

"David and Mark [Frost] were only around for the first season... I think we all felt a little abandoned. So I was fairly resentful when the film, Fire Walk with Me, came around."

This quote apparently comes from the 2001 book "The Complete Lynch.”

 

[Stavrogyn]

I'm glad that the thing with Kyle and Fire Walk with Me played out the way it did: I think that his appearance is still more than memorable and we also got Chet Desmond because of it.

The only thing that bugs me a bit is how the film doesn't tie in perfectly with My Life, My Tapes.

 

[Stavrogyn]

And what THE FUCK was with All Quiet On The Western Front sweeping the awards?!? Did anyone even SEE that film? I never even heard of it until the ceremony! And while it looks like it's well made...it's just another war movie...? Do we even care anymore? We were sitting here just shocked and annoyed at this random war film taking all the prizes. So aggravating and weird!

I kept reading your post and thinking: "Jordan and I are two of a kind! I seem to agree with everything he's saying!" That is at least until you mentioned Im Westen nichts Neues

I was very snobbish and dismissive at first when my friends started raving about it. I was annoyed because I thought: all of a sudden we have this new version that everyone seems to like, but not only that I'm the only one who has seen the 1930 film - the others probably don't even know about it!

All of that changed when I saw the film.

Now I consider it one of the best war films of all time, along with Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, The Thin Red Line, the 1930 version of All Quiet on the Western Front... If I try thinking of great war films that are focused on the actual combat and not eccentric characters in over-the-top circumstances, I have trouble recalling any that I liked better than Im Westen nichts Neues. And war films are one of my favorite genres.

I think that all of the Academy Awards it won were well deserved.