Star Trek: All Things Trek

[Dom]

Is it rare to hold the opinion that of these, Wrath of Khan is actually the weakest?

Yes, but I agree with your subsequent points. TWoK has plenty of flaws and there's an awful lot of coincidence. In a massive Federation of probably hundreds of billions of people, a starship with two of Jim Kirk's ex-crewmembers, working for Kirk's ex-girlfriend and Kirk's son, arrive on a planet where a bloke Kirk exiled 15 years earlier happens to live and, when Khan takes the Reliant, the only starship in range is the USS Enterprise, which was the ship that found him 15 years earlier, and the same bridge crew is on duty and Earth-based Admiral James Kirk happens to be on board already. It stretches credibility.

There are so many elements working against it for me, such as Kirk's son (or mostly his acting) and the absurdity of the Genesis subplot.

I actually thought Genesis was an interesting idea, showing that humans had reached the point where they had developed the maturity to create such a thing and use it in a non-destructive manner. Merrick Butrick isn't great, but he doesn't get a lot to work with.

These have a lot to do with why I slightly prefer III, because it spins those elements off into payoff that feels somewhat undermining or approaching retcon, treating the Genesis project and by extension Kirk's son with an almost jarring immediate skepticism.

My disappointment with III was that it felt like it backtracked on the best elements of II. TWoK was about the... ahem... next generation emerging and the older generation accepting that they have to accommodate them, yet not grow old before their time (as Jim had been doing!) TSFS basically says young people are dumb and can be outwitted by their smarter elders. The portrayal of the Excelsior crew as smirking bad guys is ridiculous.

Turning David into a charlatan, then killing him, is pretty harsh. Admittedly, while there is precedent for rogue members of financial, scientific and medical teams faking results and vast amounts of money being wasted on 'cul-de-sacs', I'm dubious Carol Marcus and her team would have created a situation that would have allowed a junior member to wreak that level of havoc by committing fraud. Arguably, David's lies resulted in Khan's discovery, the deaths of many Reliant crewmembers, the deaths of Khan and all his people, many crewmembers of the USS Enterprise, including her captain, the destruction of the Mutara Nebula, the ruination of his father's career, presumably his mother's also, and ultimately the Enterprise herself. Talk about an errant child!!

The novel series The Genesis Wave actually retconned the Genesis incident and said Genesis worked. The reason it failed in TSFS was because it was detonated in a nebula, rather than on a planet or asteroid. The reason Praxis exploded in Star Trek VI, the books claim, is that the Klingons were attempting to create their own Genesis device!

I'd also say that I was surprised, given how much is made of Khan as a classic villain, that I was left wanting more and felt there to be a kind of anti-climax to it--I felt he was more compelling in the TOS episode, because a lot of WOK amounts to him being made out to be a brilliant mind, but then it's not well-demonstrated within the film. He ends up losing due to what seems like fatal ignorance (instead of the intention--arrogance).

The point with Khan was that he was the least worst of the genetically-engineered emperors of the 1980s-1990s. He wasn't Stalin or Hitler or Mao or Pol Pot. What makes Khan so intriguing in Space Seed is that he is arrogant, but brilliant. He's not a bad man, per se, but a very complex one, capable of extremes of good and evil. He's also obscure enough that it requires a specialist historian to talk about him, which runs contrary to later Star Treks casually talking about him as if he's a mass murderer like Joseph Stalin. Ultimately, Khan was never a villain. He's one of the most complex characters ever seen in the series and in TWoK was simply a man driven mad, because he felt Kirk had betrayed him and caused the death of Marla and many of his people. In the mostly risible Into Darkness, he's not really the villain either, Carol's father is.

I'm probably making my opinion sound more severe than it is--overall the structure of II-IV as a cohesive trilogy was really enjoyable.

Yes, old age and death (II), sacrifice to the 'gods' (III) in order to achieve rebirth (IV) is a classic, heady mix.

 

[Cappy]

I love Wrath of Khan, but I am always amused by how Khan is never as smart as the film’s lore suggests.

I suppose this is sort of acknowledged when Spock states that Khan’s thinking is 2-dimensional (can’t recall the exact phrasing off the top of my head).

 

[Dom]

I love Wrath of Khan, but I am always amused by how Khan is never as smart as the film’s lore suggests.

I suppose this is sort of acknowledged when Spock states that Khan’s thinking is 2-dimensional (can’t recall the exact phrasing off the top of my head).

Yes, he behaves like he's on a naval vessel engaged in sea warfare. Kirk thinks three-dimensionally (remember he's a 3D chess expert) so can fight the battle from any angle. It's actually an issue with how Star Trek filmed its ships until the 2000s, behaving as if there's an up and down in space.

 

[Cappy]

That actually does connect to something I appreciated in SNW season 2: I really liked that bit where the alternate Kirk that La’an falls in love with goes on a chess rampage, as the 2D version is nothing compared to the 3D game played by Kirk and Spock.

 

[Dom]

That actually does connect to something I appreciated in SNW season 2: I really liked that bit where the alternate Kirk that La’an falls in love with goes on a chess rampage, as the 2D version is nothing compared to the 3D game played by Kirk and Spock.

One of the things people often overlook is that Kirk has a genius level IQ. He was a 'walking textbook' at the academy. There's a tendency to equate Kirk with William Shatner's offscreen personality and make him a goofball, but the character in the original TV show is so brilliant that he became the youngest starship captain ever, is a superb tactician and expert analyst. We're talking Sherlock Holmes level of intellect, with an expertise in multiple sports and martial arts discipline, but without Holmes's Asperger's tendencies.

One of the most interesting portrayals of Kirk is actually in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek: TMP novelisation. It's why I often get annoyed when Kirk is spoofed. Invariably the parodies play him as a dunderhead egomaniac controlled by his hormones. The fact he can attract women isn't because he's a hound so much as he's a good looking, charming genius. He can look at a woman, analyse her Sherlock Holmes-style and know exactly how to seduce her!

 

[AXX°N N.]

The portrayal of the Excelsior crew as smirking bad guys is ridiculous.

Yes! My viewing partner and I commented on that and felt it was off. For all the ways II-IV are cohesive, there's nonetheless a pretty palpable change in perspective between II and III.

My problem with the Genesis project isn't so much the idea overall, but more the execution of it as a kind of near-magical wave of life. The fact that across the multimedia there are all these caveats introduced about the whys and hows only support my feeling that it's sorta wishy-washy in its implementation.

 

[Cappy]

David Marcus is a bit of an awkward plot point for me, historically anyway.

On my original viewings of WOK, his character was always the weakest element of the story. His inclusion in the film almost feels like an afterthought, as his reconciliation with Kirk comes after the high stakes drama of the final showdown with Khan + Spock’s death and funeral, and it really can’t come close to matching the excitement or emotion that precedes it.

That being said… watching WOK now, I view David and Kirk’s conversation at the end as providing emotional closure to Kirk’s character arc. What really sticks out for me on rewatches
is how Saavik’s character just disappears in the finale. The film spends so much effort building her up, but then her arc just peters out.

 

[Cappy]

The thing about Search for Spock that always bugs me is how the sets looks so obviously like sets compared to Wrath of Khan.

I will say that Christopher Lloyd is awesome in 3 though. He totally invents Klingons as a concept with his performance.

 

[Dom]

David Marcus is a bit of an awkward plot point for me, historically anyway.

On my original viewings of WOK, his character was always the weakest element of the story. His inclusion in the film almost feels like an afterthought, as his reconciliation with Kirk comes after the high stakes drama of the final showdown with Khan + Spock’s death and funeral, and it really can’t come close to matching the excitement or emotion that precedes it.

That being said… watching WOK now, I view David and Kirk’s conversation at the end as providing emotional closure to Kirk’s character arc. What really sticks out for me on rewatches
is how Saavik’s character just disappears in the finale. The film spends so much effort building her up, but then her arc just peters out.

Yes, in terms of a character study, no other Star Trek until Picard Season Three has really delved so heavily into what drives a heroic character and makes him face his flaws.

I think it's safe to say that Saavik would have gone on to be important in the series, but the huge mistake of not contracting Kirsty Alley for more than one film really backfired. The Saavik of STII is half Vulan, half Romulan, which she has always been in the books. When STIII came along and they had to recast, Leonard Nimoy wanted to portray Saavik as full Vulcan and I think it's a shame. I've seen Robin Curtis in a few other productions and I think she could have embodied the quirkiness of Saavik nicely. I mean, she never once changed her hairstyle after Spock's funeral scene, which was disappointing!! Saavik's steamy affair with David never made it to the films either, although, as I read the book before seeing the film, I watched the film aware of it.

If you can get hold of the novelisations of the first six films, I can't recommend them highly enough. TMP is a fascinating study of Roddenberry's view of the Star Trek universe. There's a whole backstory that involves 'New Humans' - a growing gestalt, cyber-augmented collective that includes Will Decker's mother - who are against growing the space programme any further, meaning Starfleet has an uphill struggle keeping exploration going. It also represents the 60s TV show and 70s cartoons as in-universe dramatisations that Kirk finds fanciful. Vonda McIntyre and Jeanne Dillard's work on the second to sixth films are fantastic expansions of the stories. The movie of Star Trek III starts over 70 pages into the novelisation, for example, and we get to meet the likes of Scotty's family dealing with Pete Preston's funeral.

 

[Dom]

The thing about Search for Spock that always bugs me is how the sets looks so obviously like sets compared to Wrath of Khan.

Yes, it's very unfortunately studio-bound. the TV series had more location filming!

I will say that Christopher Lloyd is awesome in 3 though. He totally invents Klingons as a concept with his performance.

Actually, the thing that always bugged me was that Kruge was supposed to be a particularly thuggish Klingon compared with the Klingons seen in the past, but somehow he and his mob of thugs created a new template for how they were portrayed. I much preferred Mark Lenard's Klingon commander in TMP. I wonder how it would have turned out if the first choice of Edward James Olmos had played Kruge...

 

[Dom]

Yes! My viewing partner and I commented on that and felt it was off. For all the ways II-IV are cohesive, there's nonetheless a pretty palpable change in perspective between II and III.

Yes, it demonstrates the problem when you get different creators involved. Leonard Nimoy's approach was very different from Nick Meyer's. Really, the third film needed Meyer back, but he didn't want to be involved with resurrecting Spock. He came back and wrote STIV, because Spock being restored was a fait accompli by then. Genesis, for me, was an interesting idea in STII where it's kind of a MacGuffin, but its use in STIII to bring back Spock was cheesy and reeked of 'fairy dust'. The same goes with the 'Remember' bit from STII. Are we really supposed to believe Spock downloaded his soul/a duplicate of his entire personality and memory into McCoy's brain? The novelisations at least try to resolve that a little bit, but it's never worked for me.

My problem with the Genesis project isn't so much the idea overall, but more the execution of it as a kind of near-magical wave of life. The fact that across the multimedia there are all these caveats introduced about the whys and hows only support my feeling that it's sorta wishy-washy in its implementation.

As I say, I think Genesis represented an interesting maturity in humans. Bear in mind, the novelisation of STII had Galaxy Class starships exploring the Andromeda Galaxy at this stage. One of the things Gene Roddenberry and co did for TNG was drastically reduce the scale of the Federation's spread across the galaxy. Genesis actually ties in more with the high end science fiction writing of the era that TMP was also aiming for. TSFS represents a repudiation of those higher ambitions and the following films are all on a much smaller canvas.

 

[Stavrogyn]

Great news!

‘Star Trek: Prodigy’ Season 2 Moves to Netflix After Paramount+ Cancellation

"Star Trek: Prodigy" Season 2 is warping its way to Netflix.

variety.com

Really enjoyed the first season and was hoping that something like this would happen.

 

[Stavrogyn]

Anybody catch the Peaks reference on the last episode of Lower Decks?

Yes! I've seen the episode in question only after reading your post, so I was paying close attention, but there was no need for that since the reference wasn't subtle at all It was a really nice touch (especially the koala). That show just keeps on delivering.

By the way, are there any BoJack Horseman fans around here? Because I keep finding connections between Lower Decks and good ole Bobo the Angsty Zebra. One of my favourite episodes - Downer Ending - references Twin Peaks as well.

And Beckett Mariner reminded me quite a lot of BoJack in Parth Ferengi's Heart Place.

 

[Stavrogyn]

It's an underrated show imo.

We just watched The Catwalk (season 2, episode 12) yesterday evening, and to be honest, we've been enjoying the show very much from the very first episode. Of course, there are weaker episodes now and then, but overall I wouldn't say that Enterprise is any weaker than, let's say, TNG or Voyager - at least so far. It's actually quite refreshing.

The only thing I occasionally have an issue with are the outdated special effects - but they're understandable and forgivable. The show just belongs to its own time.

 

[Stavrogyn]

Has anyone seen Very Short Treks, released for the occasion of the 50th anniversary of The Animated Series?

We watched them yesterday and laughed quite a lot. They totally exceeded our expectations.

 

[MasterMastermnd]

Yes! I especially dug the first (I think) Very Short Trek, in the SNW Enterprise rec room. My girlfriend used to watch Bojack Horseman and went as him for Halloween once. I'll ask her about it Lower Decks reminds her of it.

I really do feel the only thing putting Enterprise a step below peak Trek is that it was cancelled. If they'd actually been able to follow through on the threads they were setting up it would have been brilliant.

 

[Dom]

I really do feel the only thing putting Enterprise a step below peak Trek is that it was cancelled. If they'd actually been able to follow through on the threads they were setting up it would have been brilliant.

Enterprise, unfortunately, took too long to hit its stride. Season Four is what season one should have been. What we had before was effectively another TNG-alike with more primitive kit. Interesting that ST Picard effectively decanonised the events seen in the holodeck in These Are the Voyages.

 

[Cappy]

Interesting to think about what could have been with Enterprise. Allegedly it was originally slated to take place closer to the Zefram Cochran era of First Contact, with the first season being a “The Right Stuff” esque build up to the Enterprise’s launch, and every episode would take place on Earth to boot!

The second season ep “First Flight” is kind of a window into what this hypothetical season of tv would have been. As this is one of my fave eps of the whole series, I kind of wish this had been the direction the show had taken early on.

 

[Cappy]

I have wondered what Enterprise would look like if it got to do a few more seasons. Depicting the Earth-Romulan War would have been tricky, given that nobody ever saw the Romulans during it (according to Spock in “Balance of Terror” anyway).

My own head canon is that Archer and Starfleet brass likely found out the truth about Romulans and Vulcans, but covered it up, so as to not reignite xenophobic and anti-Vulcan sentiments on Earth.

 

[Stavrogyn]

I especially dug the first (I think) Very Short Trek, in the SNW Enterprise rec room.

That was episode 2, Holiday Party, and yes, it was a good one! Spock was a great choice for that role.

By the way, if you haven't seen BoJack Horseman, I highly recommend it. It's my second favourite TV show of all time. (I never dressed up as him, but I do have four BoJack T-shirts, official merchandise.)

And Paul F. Tompkins, who voices Dr. Migleemo in Lower Decks, voiced Mr. Peanutbutter in BoJack Horseman (one of the main characters).