THE RETURN Nadine in S3

[Cappy]

In my Twin Peaks fantasy league, that would be the point where she cuts ties with her dad and starts working at the RR, eventually filling the Annie Blackburn role.

Edit: ...eventually filling *most of* the Annie Blackburn role.

I think the show was right to kibosh the Audrey-Cooper romance (Coudrey?). Coop hooking up with a high school girl while investigating the sexual abuse and murder of a high school girl might represent what Dick Tremayne would refer to as a "supreme incongruity".

But that being said, the show shouldn't have just given up on Audrey the way it did.

 

[Cappy]

Cappy’s reference to Ben’s “perpetual infantilism” inspired me to rewatch the scene in Episode 14 where Ben is arrested for Laura’s murder, the one time he is held accountable (albeit not EXACTLY for something he did). This is possibly my favorite Beymer performance on the show, and it completely supports Cappy’s appraisal of the character. He at first tries to lord his power over them. When that fails, he resorts to complete denial, just dismissive, like he can make Cooper and Truman vanish by sheer force of will. Then he says he’s going out for a sandwich (Episode 2 callback!). And when they finally grab him, he flails and screams “No!! No!!” over and over like a child being dragged to his room. You literally see a narcissistic adult regressing to child form over the span of a minute. Great stuff.

Yeah the sandwich line is one of my favorites -- definitely a great proto Roger Sterling moment.

Also the way Lynch staged that scene is great. It really maximizes what a baby Ben is when they drag him away from the camera.

 

[AXX°N N.]

The Dr. Amp stuff is interesting. In Frost’s books, he seems to present Jacoby’s motives as pure and redemptive, and I believe Russ Tamblyn has also made twitter posts implying that he endorses Jacoby’s views. And honestly, most of what he’s saying is not all that radical, although Lynch directed Russ to a rather deranged performance, and then the editing throws in that hilariously abrupt cut from his anti-capitalism message to an infomercial mail-in screen. But then, in the scene when he meets Nadine, Jacoby does seem genuinely sincerely happy that he has touched someone. Jacoby has always been a very conflicted and ambivalent character (see the cemetery scene with Cooper in Episode 3), struggling with the urge between cynicism and desire for human connection. I’m not exactly sure what Lynch’s intentions were for those scenes, but it feels in line with what has gone before for the character that he would be genuinely trying to help people while also trying to cash in for an easy few bucks (especially after losing his psychiatry license).

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply the bullshit was his views. The funny thing about his contradictions is that they're not anymore absurd than those we have to face or make ourselves in order to earn a buck, and really, I think an argument can be made that the cynical read is to suggest he shouldn't be funding himself independently. Having to compartmentalize the profiteering aspect to acknowledge that the message is apt regardless is pretty much the fabric of common daily life, and a contrasting mundanity to the stirring way he puts his thoughts out. Nadine's fervent embrace of the vocab and props looks ridiculous, but it facilitates something profound in spite of it.

 

[Jordan Cole]

Edit: ...eventually filling *most of* the Annie Blackburn role.

I think the show was right to kibosh the Audrey-Cooper romance (Coudrey?). Coop hooking up with a high school girl while investigating the sexual abuse and murder of a high school girl might represent what Dick Tremayne would refer to as a "supreme incongruity".

But that being said, the show shouldn't have just given up on Audrey the way it did.

The problem, as I see it, is that the show seemed to be terrified to have Cooper and Audrey even in the same scene together. Sure, we all get that it would be an inappropriate relationship within the fictional reality of the show. But jesus christ, who here can actually say they didn't feel the chemistry from those two? I remember when I showed the series to my girlfriend, she was SO INTO Cooper and Audrey and was just enraged and disappointed as it became clear those two characters would barely interact anymore, and when I told her that her suspicions were basically right. (Personally, I really like the Annie character and basically think that all works.)

I think the two (Audrey and Cooper) could have explored an interesting, complex, platonic relationship in the show, but with that undercurrent of inappropriate sexual chemistry and flirting to keep everybody on the edge of their seat. The show just totally abandons literally everything about the two of them, which is what struck me as odd. And I also do find it odd when people are like "thank goodness, she's in HIGH SCHOOL!" I do feel there's some guilt and deflecting there...Maybe I'm a weird pervert for enjoying the completely intended chemistry between the two incredibly attractive and charismatic lead characters! Lock me up!

 

[Cappy]

The problem, as I see it, is that the show seemed to be terrified to have Cooper and Audrey even in the same scene together. Sure, we all get that it would be an inappropriate relationship within the fictional reality of the show. But jesus christ, who here can actually say they didn't feel the chemistry from those two? I remember when I showed the series to my girlfriend, she was SO INTO Cooper and Audrey and was just enraged and disappointed as it became clear those two characters would barely interact anymore, and when I told her that her suspicions were basically right. (Personally, I really like the Annie character and basically think that all works.)

I think the two (Audrey and Cooper) could have explored an interesting, complex, platonic relationship in the show, but with that undercurrent of inappropriate sexual chemistry and flirting to keep everybody on the edge of their seat. The show just totally abandons literally everything about the two of them, which is what struck me as odd. And I also do find it odd when people are like "thank goodness, she's in HIGH SCHOOL!" I do feel there's some guilt and deflecting there...Maybe I'm a weird pervert for enjoying the completely intended chemistry between the two incredibly attractive and charismatic lead characters! Lock me up!

I enjoy the chemistry between Audrey and Coop as well. For me personally, their interaction mainly feels problematic in hindsight, when taking into account Laura's experiences in FWWM + Missing Pieces. Were Cooper to give into Audrey's advances, he wouldn't be much better than Dr. Jacoby hitting on Laura when she was desperate for help... Apologies if this viewpoint comes across as somehow guilty or deflecting.

To the show's credit, it diffuses the situation when Coop turns her down and offers to be her friend in S1. Not sure why they had to keep them completely separated like they did, unless there is truth to the LFB drama rumors.

 

[Jordan Cole]

I enjoy the chemistry between Audrey and Coop as well. For me personally, their interaction mainly feels problematic in hindsight, when taking into account Laura's experiences in FWWM + Missing Pieces. Were Cooper to give into Audrey's advances, he wouldn't be much better than Dr. Jacoby hitting on Laura when she was desperate for help... Apologies if this viewpoint comes across as somehow guilty or deflecting.

To the show's credit, it diffuses the situation when Coop turns her down and offers to be her friend in S1. Not sure why they had to keep them completely separated like they did, unless there is truth to the LFB drama rumors.

No no, that view makes total sense and it's the most logical. But I'm kind of talking about Cooper and Audrey not from a logical perspective but a chemistry one (or a more crude way to put it, a horny one?) Like I've just witnessed a lot of fans on Twitter or what have you kind of vocalize their disapproval of Cooper dating a high school girl in such a showy fashion, I kind of think "yeah yeah, I get it, you're so moral about these fictional characters..." while I'm wondering that if they were honest with themselves, they must have felt that flirtatious chemistry between them because...the writers put it in the show and the actors knocked it out of the park!

Like in a way, and maybe this is the brilliance of it, the writers basically teased the viewer with this, then scolds the viewer for ever wanting to see it! It does reflect Laura and how the adult men in Twin Peaks were seduced by her (and her Black Lodge energies or aura or what have you) and exploited her, but I have a sneaking suspicion that wasn't the idea, that maybe the writers just realized what they were doing was weird in a real-world context and backed off. And to be clear, I like the scene where Cooper turns her down, and the possibility of a friendship between them. I just think it's odd they barely ever interact again, and with so much dead air in season 2 where they could have.

This is all complicated by the fact that, if we're being honest, the actresses don't LOOK like they're in high school ( ::googles:: Fenn was like 25 when shooting Twin Peaks), and that chemistry between them was very convincing and real. Like I think if Audrey actually looked like a young 15 or 16 year old (in my opinion she does not) we'd all be rightfully creeped out by the possibility of Cooper and her together. Instead they basically look the same age. So that's just another layer to it.

The LFB rumors: I generally don't comment on it just cause I don't think we know, but it would be reasonable to assume there's some truth to it. I don't get why them canceling the flirtatious scenes etc would lead to "and they must never share screen time again", unless they overreacted and got too scared, or perhaps that was part of the demands...NO MORE scenes between Cooper and Audrey? Very weird for an ensemble show.

Supernatural had a similar weird thing with two characters having to keep separated, and it basically ruined the show!

 

[AXX°N N.]

I think the negative reaction to the idea of a Coop/Audrey romance (or suggestive non-romance) rests on this idea that it would be straightforward. However, there's tons of possibilities for how to handle it in a way that doesn't undermine Coop's character or the Laura premise. In fact, it could have been an excellent tool to challenge his character, provide something of a gray morality, and it certainly would have made what the double eventually does far more tragic. Snipping the whole relationship ended up making that whole arc (it does remain an arc, inevitably) in dire need of a missing middle section, and prevented from being the strong throughline it could've been. Really, Audrey being made more integral via the double and Richard makes more sense if you take it as a bit of a soft reboot, as if the show is actively ignoring that it separated the two so harshly.

 

[Cappy]

I think the negative reaction to the idea of a Coop/Audrey romance (or suggestive non-romance) rests on this idea that it would be straightforward. However, there's tons of possibilities for how to handle it in a way that doesn't undermine Coop's character or the Laura premise. In fact, it could have been an excellent tool to challenge his character, provide something of a gray morality, and it certainly would have made what the double eventually does far more tragic. Snipping the whole relationship ended up making that whole arc (it does remain an arc, inevitably) in dire need of a missing middle section, and prevented from being the strong throughline it could've been. Really, Audrey being made more integral via the double and Richard makes more sense if you take it as a bit of a soft reboot, as if the show is actively ignoring that it separated the two so harshly.

I'm not one for meta-readings, but Audrey's predicament in S3 almost feels like a Lynchian parody of her being relegated to insignificant and uninteresting storylines in the 2nd half of S2.

Edit: And I mean the never ending argument with Charlie, not the Richard stuff.

 

[AXX°N N.]

I'm not one for meta-readings, but Audrey's predicament in S3 almost feels like a Lynchian parody of her being relegated to insignificant and uninteresting storylines in the 2nd half of S2.

Edit: And I mean the never ending argument with Charlie, not the Richard stuff.

I love that reading. Part of what makes her scenes so effective is they feel like they tap into her actual exasperation as someone who has endorsed the Coop/Audrey pairing.

 

[4815162342]

What are we talking about, like 4 scenes out of 18 hours? Let's be honest, none of the Twin Peaks characters get significant development. We spend as much or more time with Dougie and his associates, Gordon/Albert/Tammy/Diane, and Mr. C.

 

[AXX°N N.]

What are we talking about, like 4 scenes out of 18 hours? Let's be honest, none of the Twin Peaks characters get significant development. We spend as much or more time with Dougie and his associates, Gordon/Albert/Tammy/Diane, and Mr. C.

Seems like you're introducing a disagreement where there wasn't any; Nadine is featured very briefly. I personally don't see a problem with a discussion on what is there if a good number of people clearly want to have one, but I also think it's worthwhile to think about characters that show up only once on single pages in Ulysses.

 

[Jordan Cole]

Yeah. While I agree in the sense that I was disappointed we didn't have more scenes with most of those characters (I especially wanted more of the Bobby/Shelly family as the show was drawing to a close), it would be silly to say Nadine didn't get substantial development even though it was fairly quick and to the point. That's what the thread's about, that she's one of the few characters who really turns a corner in season 3, amount of screen time not totally relevant to the claim.

 

[Tulpa]

What are we talking about, like 4 scenes out of 18 hours? Let's be honest, none of the Twin Peaks characters get significant development. We spend as much or more time with Dougie and his associates, Gordon/Albert/Tammy/Diane, and Mr. C.

That topic of OG characters having a smaller than expected presence in S3 would be an interesting one in itself. Feel free to start a thread.

 

[eyeboogers]

I have always agreed with Cappy's take here. Nadine let's go of all of her nostalgic dreams of how life was supposed to be, takes a look at where she is at now and her effect on the world around her, and then shovels herself out of the shit. Cooper, Shelley and so many other characters have learned nothing and are eternally repeating the same mistakes. The Nadine/Amp storyline is the key to everything in The Return.

 

[Dom]

Interesting comments and I agree with all of them - even when they contradict each other! There's an interesting aspect to all the characters that Nadine in her too few scenes brings into focus: the fact that they seem imprisoned in the town and their past. Ben is locked seemingly in an office (which looks like a studio set) and we see little of the Great Northern otherwise. Margaret is locked in her hut. Ed is locked either in his garage or the diner. Audrey is locked in her own head. Norma is locked in her diner, except when she and Ed finally get together. Jacoby is locked in his makeshift studio in the woods. The sheriffs, for the most part, are in the Sheriff's Department office or near their vehicles.

Within limits, Nadine starts to 'dig herself out of the shit', although she's still living in the town. There's an undertone to all this: is there some sort of 'agency' within the town that is doing this to people? Is it just people's horizons shrinking as they get older or is the dark power in the town somehow keeping its citizens confined for a reason? Cooper has been kept in the Black Lodge for 25 years, but most of the characters seem to have been waiting in their own Black Lodge the whole time. When you look at the town in the original series and the movie, it seems much bigger (and, strangely enough, we see more of the town in Season Three, yet it feels more claustrophobic!)

There's an interesting aspect to the digital photography. While the original filmed series and movie tended to have very controlled shots with specific mise-en-scene, where everything that needed to be in frame was placed there, the digital photography of Season Three feels more like (and I don't mean this in an insulting way) a local news team had put down a camera and filmed. There's a scene where Andy is outdoors by his car, for example. In the background, there are cars going by, likely real cars with real people, unconnected to the show.

And that's what can be quite jarring for me. Shots of the outside of the RR in the movie seem quite empty, for example, with only what needs to be in a shot placed there. When we see the RR in season three with its digital video look, there are lots of cars in the car park. It looks like a shot that could have been taken somewhere similar in my neighbourhood here in the UK by a news camera crew (and the series was shot on a news camera of course!) So you have a 'video verité', newsy look to the outdoor scenes of the series and actors performing. It feels odd and enhances the strangeness of the original series characters' lives, putting their drama against a more 'realistic' video backdrop.

It always feels to me like there's another show going on in Twin Peaks, the town, during Season Three, while the majority of the action takes place outside of the town. Lots of intriguing story threads are thrown up, but never really explored. I feel like I'm watching a series about Gordon Cole and Cooper, while there a bits from a parallel series taking popping up piecemeal. In a way, it seems there ought to be a second series taking place entirely in the town focused on the town's characters, set at the same time as Season Three and only dropping brief scenes of Cole and Cooper into the mix.

Nadine breaks free for a moment. But if the series reflects real life, on wonders if Ed and Norma's time together will be brief and Nadine and Ed will end up together again, whether or not they truly want it.

 

[4815162342]

Seems like you're introducing a disagreement where there wasn't any; Nadine is featured very briefly. I personally don't see a problem with a discussion on what is there if a good number of people clearly want to have one, but I also think it's worthwhile to think about characters that show up only once on single pages in Ulysses.

I didn't mean to. All I really meant to say is that I don't think there's enough Nadine in S3 to have an interesting discussion about it.

 

[Jordan Cole]

Oh, I disagree strongly with that, while I do agree that there isn't enough. I wanted more.

The gold motif in season 3 is utterly fascinating, and Nadine and Jacobi and the gold shovels are right at the center of it.

My take on it is basically that you have two things: garmonbozia and gold. Black/White Lodges if you will. Gold is that best part of us, that shining heavenly light, (those blue skies and) golden sunshine, that hope. Laura Palmer's origins are glowing in gold. Definitive Gold Box Edition, she is.

What is garmonbozia but chewed up, vomited up, disgusting gold? That hope and beauty turned ugly, into despair, negativity, hatred, poison.

The golden Laura orb is not garmonbozia, but garmonbozia may possibly be that inner light, that soul, that beautiful thing, completely mashed up, creamed, if you will, with pain and suffering. Gold = soul. Garmonbozia = a destroyed soul. And Laura, in FWWM especially, was the living embodiment of both gold and garmonbozia, often both at once, and the extremes of ping ponging back and forth between the two.

Jacobi's gold shovels and its effect on Nadine (and then the domino effect on Ed, Norma, who knows what else?) shows what the opposite of garmonbozia is. If garmonbozia is "pain and sorrow", is gold "comfort and joy"? Love is the answer...it's the only hope for these characters and the town of Twin Peaks.

 

[Cappy]

Speaking of gold, there is one big character that none of us have mentioned: The Log Lady.

She describes being her log turning gold as she dies. Aside from Nadine, she might be the only other character that truly accepts change. Obviously accepting one's mortality is very different than getting out of an unhappy marriage, but both do involve a kind of radical reflection and realization.

 

[Cappy]

Also: contrast the way Hawk allows Log Lady space to have the personal experience of passing on, with how Cooper tries to save the day and rescue Laura.

Hawk, from what we see on screen, hasn't changed much, but he at least can acknowledge and accept the passage of time.

 

[Mr. Reindeer]

And yet Log Lady (or rather, the Log itself) also is the one who encourages Hawk to reopen the past and dive headlong into a 25-year-old resolved case, which is arguably the opposite of moving forward. Margaret has always seemed like one of the most well-adjusted characters, receptive and open, an emotional and spiritual guide to those who are willing to listen, and even able to acknowledge her own anger and negative feelings while striving to be better. Oddly enough, in the original run, she probably expresses her most humanity in the Log Lady Intros shot for Bravo, which turned out to be indispensable and really inform her arc in The Return. I guess some might argue that boarding up your fireplace and carrying around a Log that may or may not contain the spirit of your dead husband is maybe not the most healthy way of moving forward, but it seems to work for her and she’s always been true to herself without worrying about the judgment of others.