THE RETURN Are there different versions of the show out there?

Stavrogyn

White Lodge
Apr 12, 2022
677
550
Certain cuts from the episodic airing never made it to any physical releases.
I don't know about the original series, but, unless I'm imagining this, I think a bit of dialogue was cut from the last scene with Steven and Gersten (when they're sitting at the bottom of a big tree)... What Steven said was a tad vulgar, to put it mildly, which is why I remembered it vividly, so I was very surprised to find it missing when rewatching the series a year later.

As I said, I could be imagining all of this, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd be quite happy if this confounding mystery was finally resolved.
 

eyeboogers

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 14, 2022
106
160
There are many edits between the originally released versions of TPTR and the current BluRay/streams. For example I am baffled that so many other's seem to have forgotten that when Carrie Page and Cooper are driving at night and getting close to the Palmer house, she asks to see his FBI badge a second time. And this time Cooper presents it with much more hesitation, as if he doesn't really believe it himself anymore. This is what I saw, and I have no way to prove it. There were also other edits made to that last episode.

In terms of what you are asking Stovrogyn, I think people were a bit confused about exactly what was being said in the dialogue between Steven and Gersten, so maybe if we dig on Dugpa (or similar) we might find a transcript of the scene.
 

Cappy

White Lodge
Aug 4, 2022
559
550
I watched it for the first time in the 90s via the reruns on the Bravo channel. That channel shaped my tastes for all time - it's also how I watched The Prisoner. I often watch stuff on my VR headset now, and I really want someone to make a retro TV room with a small screen!
Yeah, Bravo was my first exposure to Twin Peaks in the early 00s. Such fond memories of staying up late and watching — and if I was too sleepy, setting my VCR to record it so I could get caught up the next day.
 

Mr. Reindeer

White Lodge
Apr 13, 2022
775
1,740
I don't know about the original series, but, unless I'm imagining this, I think a bit of dialogue was cut from the last scene with Steven and Gersten (when they're sitting at the bottom of a big tree)... What Steven said was a tad vulgar, to put it mildly, which is why I remembered it vividly, so I was very surprised to find it missing when rewatching the series a year later.

As I said, I could be imagining all of this, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd be quite happy if this confounding mystery was finally resolved.
I don’t believe anything was altered. The original Showtime subtitles just got the dialogue wrong. As I understand it, sometimes people who write the subtitles for these things have access to a script, but other times they’re just winging it based on what they hear. It depends on the production. I’m guessing this was the latter. Anyway, what Steven actually says is, “Why are you crying?” The subtitles are corrected on the Blu Ray, but someone on reddit had deciphered and posted the correct dialogue months before the Blu Ray, so I’m pretty sure nothing was changed there.
 
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LateReg

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 12, 2022
150
393
There are many edits between the originally released versions of TPTR and the current BluRay/streams. For example I am baffled that so many other's seem to have forgotten that when Carrie Page and Cooper are driving at night and getting close to the Palmer house, she asks to see his FBI badge a second time. And this time Cooper presents it with much more hesitation, as if he doesn't really believe it himself anymore. This is what I saw, and I have no way to prove it. There were also other edits made to that last episode.

In terms of what you are asking Stovrogyn, I think people were a bit confused about exactly what was being said in the dialogue between Steven and Gersten, so maybe if we dig on Dugpa (or similar) we might find a transcript of the scene.
As Reindeer pointed out, you are correct about the Steven dialogue.

However, I don't believe anything was altered in the final episode. I have the originally streamed episodes downloaded and saved. There is no second instance of Carrie asking to see the badge, and the episode is the exact same length as it is on disc. I think that's just Lynch getting under your skin to the point that you're genuinely feeling what the characters are in their uncertainty. (Cooper does have his badge out and announce himself as FBI when he shows up to her place, and then she later asks him to see the badge again as they start driving, so perhaps this is what youre remembering.)

Although someone had once pointed out that the scene of Sarah biting the trucker's neck contained a slightly different shot at one point, I do not believe anything has been altered in the series transition from streaming to Blu-ray. It's all an illusion.

ETA: To clarify/revise, in Part 14 during the Sarah bar/throat rip scene, there is indeed a small, sudden zoom in the Blu-ray version at around the 47:47 second mark that isn't present on the streaming version. That is the only difference in the entirety of the series that I can confirm. I do not believe there are any further differences.
 
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eyeboogers

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 14, 2022
106
160
As Reindeer pointed out, you are correct about the Steven dialogue.

However, I don't believe anything was altered in the final episode. I have the originally streamed episodes downloaded and saved.

ETA: To clarify/revise, in Part 14 during the Sarah bar/throat rip scene, there is indeed a small, sudden zoom in the Blu-ray version at around the 47:47 second mark that isn't present on the streaming version. That is the only difference in the entirety of the series that I can confirm. I do not believe there are any further differences.
I am not in doubt about what I saw. I am 100% certain. Also Cooper and Diane shared a happy reunion kiss upon his exit from the red room, making the next instance of them kissing in the car at the 430 line even more eerie. I should add that I watched the stream from HBO Nordic as soon as it came online at like 04:00 in the morning, so even if LateReg saved the US stream it could still be different sources. There are numerous minor things altered between the first airings and the Blu ray versions and we should probably have a thread for that.
 

Stavrogyn

White Lodge
Apr 12, 2022
677
550
There are numerous minor things altered between the first airings and the Blu ray versions and we should probably have a thread for that.
I would probably be able to find the version with the Steven dialogue that I think went missing.
 

Tulpa

Bureau HQ
TULPA MOD
ADMIN
Apr 11, 2022
587
803
Moved to its own thread as it's an interesting discussion to be had.

I can't seem to find the Dugpa thread that had similar discussions revolving around the presence of the golden orb in the NYC scene. If anyone has it at hand, please post it.
 

Mr. Reindeer

White Lodge
Apr 13, 2022
775
1,740
Moved to its own thread as it's an interesting discussion to be had.

I can't seem to find the Dugpa thread that had similar discussions revolving around the presence of the golden orb in the NYC scene. If anyone has it at hand, please post it.

I will say that I watched the original Showtime streaming versions 2-3 times during the weeks of their initial release (I’d watch on Sunday then rewatch a couple more times during the subsequent week), and I don’t believe anything on the Blu Ray has been altered aside from the small zoom added to that Sarah scene. Certainly never saw this Part 18 thing of Carrie asking for the badge at night, although I can’t speak for HBO Nordic.

It is possible the orb was added for the Blu Ray since I never noticed it previously, but it’s also really subtle.
 
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secretlettermkr

Waiting Room
Apr 12, 2022
327
463
The only time Carry "ask to see the badge" is this.. its not at night, its at the beginning of the trip.
These scans are from the original streamed versions
1688492251699.png
1688492261567.png

Cooper does not look confused at all.
Next Time He shows the badge is this
1688492449330.png
1688492466801.png
 
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eyeboogers

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 14, 2022
106
160
The only time Carry "ask to see the badge" is this.. its not at night, its at the beginning of the trip.
These scans are from the original streamed versions
View attachment 787
View attachment 788

Cooper does not look confused at all.
Next Time He shows the badge is this
View attachment 789
View attachment 790
Yes, the two scenes were always working as setup payoff, first Cooper shows Carrie the badge with great confidence, when she starts feeling uneasy about the whole endeavour and asks to see it again, Cooper shows it but looks worried and tentative while doing so - "What is your name?".
 

eyeboogers

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 14, 2022
106
160
Moved to its own thread as it's an interesting discussion to be had.

I can't seem to find the Dugpa thread that had similar discussions revolving around the presence of the golden orb in the NYC scene. If anyone has it at hand, please post it.
I remember that discussion, specifically after someone brought it up, I went back to the (current) streamed version of the scene in NYC where MOTHER first appears and did a series of screen captures which I then shared on Dugpa. I also cannot find that discussion today, but I might try to do the still frame thing again. At one point an orb/seed appears flotating above Mother's hand. But it is literally blink and you'll miss it.
 

Tulpa

Bureau HQ
TULPA MOD
ADMIN
Apr 11, 2022
587
803
I remember that discussion, specifically after someone brought it up, I went back to the (current) streamed version of the scene in NYC where MOTHER first appears and did a series of screen captures which I then shared on Dugpa. I also cannot find that discussion today, but I might try to do the still frame thing again. At one point an orb/seed appears flotating above Mother's hand. But it is literally blink and you'll miss it.
IMG_1463.gif
 

Mr. Reindeer

White Lodge
Apr 13, 2022
775
1,740
I remember that discussion, specifically after someone brought it up, I went back to the (current) streamed version of the scene in NYC where MOTHER first appears and did a series of screen captures which I then shared on Dugpa. I also cannot find that discussion today, but I might try to do the still frame thing again. At one point an orb/seed appears flotating above Mother's hand. But it is literally blink and you'll miss it.
I posted a link to the discussion above. Here it is again:

Parts 1 & 2 - My log has a message for you & The stars turn and a time presents itself (SPOILERS) - Page 67 - World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022
 

LateReg

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 12, 2022
150
393
I am not in doubt about what I saw. I am 100% certain. Also Cooper and Diane shared a happy reunion kiss upon his exit from the red room, making the next instance of them kissing in the car at the 430 line even more eerie. I should add that I watched the stream from HBO Nordic as soon as it came online at like 04:00 in the morning, so even if LateReg saved the US stream it could still be different sources. There are numerous minor things altered between the first airings and the Blu ray versions and we should probably have a thread for that.
I was going to immediately respond to both you and @Stavrogyn and whoever else to say that I truly do not believe that there are different versions out there, and that to think otherwise is simply the result of false memory, or in the case of the Steven/Gerstyn scene, bad subtitles.

HOWEVER...I also recall Cooper and Diane sharing a kiss immediately after exiting the red curtain in Glastonbury Grove! You saying the same thing sent me into a frenzy and kept me up until 5:30 AM two nights ago. It is indeed a very vivid memory of mine, and every time I watch the series I still wait in anticipation of Cooper and Diane kissing outside the sycamore trees. I wait for it in a sort of confused state where I'm thinking "well, do they or don't they here?" (sort of similar to that Part 14 Roadhouse Rando scene where the woman can't remember if her uncle was there), and such a conscious feeling occurs almost every time I watch it . So I went back and looked at my originally downloaded files and waited in suspense, convinced that the kiss HAD to be there on those files. I saw numerous opportunities for the kiss to be there: the look in their eyes, the tender hand on the face, a few edits in which it seemed like they may be ready to lean in for the kiss only for Lynch to cut away. But lo and behold, the kiss is NOT there. And yet I vividly remember it being there! But checking through my original files that were taken from the original way I watched it (Amazon Prime Showtime app), the kiss is not there. It never was.

In addition to verifying in Part 18 that my memory of the Glastonbury kiss was faulty, I also checked out a few other things on my original files based on recent comments.

1. The gold orb in the glass box Experiment Model scene in Part 1 wasn't spotted (by Dugpa users, anyway) until after the series came to Blu-ray. But checking my originally downloaded files, it was indeed always there. I had never noticed it until it was pointed out to me, and I still sometimes miss it even on Blu-ray, but it was always there in its original airing.

2. The Steven/Gerstyn scene in Part 15 was subtitled wrongly on the original stream. The subs included with my downloaded file include the C-word twice, and there is also a transcript you can read on Reddit that states the exact same. But the Blu-ray has corrected the subtitles, without altering the dialogue/scene itself, as far as I can tell from such a murky scene.

3. As originally stated and echoed by secretlettermkr, Carrie only asks to see the badge once in Part 18.

Now I know we all have our own subjective existence, and memory is a tricky thing. I don't believe that there are alternate versions that have aired, despite eyeboogers and I sharing the same memory of Cooper and Diane kissing immediately upon his exit from Glastonbury in Part 18. I'll even admit that I was able to find one "verification" that the kiss occurred, since the wiki fandom page on Diane states that they kiss upon exiting Glastonbury in Part 18! Apparently someone named Pyramidhead added that information seven days after the episode aired, and was the first to add info to that page, and it hasn't been changed since. Yet no such verification of the kiss is included in either Cooper's or the Part 18 wiki fandom pages. Again, I don't think it occurred, but I can see why some of us remember it that way.

Furthermore, don't you think that with all the rabid scrutiny/analysis this series has received, both as it aired and then throughout the release of two very fine Blu-ray box sets, that this information would be easy to find, especially in the digital age? That you could simply google "differences between streaming and Blu-ray Twin Peaks" and find some Reddit post relatively easily? That it would have been proven by now or at least speculated in more depth? Maybe, I don't know. But that this isn't something people are regularly talking about is sort-of-evidence that multiple versions don't exist.

That said...even though I don't believe there are alternate versions aired in different territories or on different networks that were quickly taken down and replaced, it's too wonderful and strange a coincidence to completely ignore. IF Lynch/Frost did do something like this, not only would it be unprecedented as a meta-narrative coup, it would fit perfectly into the idea -- vague in the series and concrete in Frost's books -- that there is an official and "unofficial" version of events that only some of us remember. That throughout the series we are seeing but one of many versions of Cooper escaping the lodge as he is trapped in an endless, slightly shifting loop as he tries to find/save Laura and eradicate Judy. That collective memory is slowly being erased and overtaken by new memories caused by shifts in unstable time, the altering of events, the past dictating the future. Again, I don't believe this to be the case, but that we are talking about this is eerily similar to the notion of an "unofficial" version that nobody but Cole and Cooper remember, which Tammy reveals confusion about in Frost's Final Dossier.
 

Mr. Reindeer

White Lodge
Apr 13, 2022
775
1,740
I was going to immediately respond to both you and @Stavrogyn and whoever else to say that I truly do not believe that there are different versions out there, and that to think otherwise is simply the result of false memory, or in the case of the Steven/Gerstyn scene, bad subtitles.

HOWEVER...I also recall Cooper and Diane sharing a kiss immediately after exiting the red curtain in Glastonbury Grove! You saying the same thing sent me into a frenzy and kept me up until 5:30 AM two nights ago. It is indeed a very vivid memory of mine, and every time I watch the series I still wait in anticipation of Cooper and Diane kissing outside the sycamore trees. I wait for it in a sort of confused state where I'm thinking "well, do they or don't they here?" (sort of similar to that Part 14 Roadhouse Rando scene where the woman can't remember if her uncle was there), and such a conscious feeling occurs almost every time I watch it . So I went back and looked at my originally downloaded files and waited in suspense, convinced that the kiss HAD to be there on those files. I saw numerous opportunities for the kiss to be there: the look in their eyes, the tender hand on the face, a few edits in which it seemed like they may be ready to lean in for the kiss only for Lynch to cut away. But lo and behold, the kiss is NOT there. And yet I vividly remember it being there! But checking through my original files that were taken from the original way I watched it (Amazon Prime Showtime app), the kiss is not there. It never was.

In addition to verifying in Part 18 that my memory of the Glastonbury kiss was faulty, I also checked out a few other things on my original files based on recent comments.

1. The gold orb in the glass box Experiment Model scene in Part 1 wasn't spotted (by Dugpa users, anyway) until after the series came to Blu-ray. But checking my originally downloaded files, it was indeed always there. I had never noticed it until it was pointed out to me, and I still sometimes miss it even on Blu-ray, but it was always there in its original airing.

2. The Steven/Gerstyn scene in Part 15 was subtitled wrongly on the original stream. The subs included with my downloaded file include the C-word twice, and there is also a transcript you can read on Reddit that states the exact same. But the Blu-ray has corrected the subtitles, without altering the dialogue/scene itself, as far as I can tell from such a murky scene.

3. As originally stated and echoed by secretlettermkr, Carrie only asks to see the badge once in Part 18.

Now I know we all have our own subjective existence, and memory is a tricky thing. I don't believe that there are alternate versions that have aired, despite eyeboogers and I sharing the same memory of Cooper and Diane kissing immediately upon his exit from Glastonbury in Part 18. I'll even admit that I was able to find one "verification" that the kiss occurred, since the wiki fandom page on Diane states that they kiss upon exiting Glastonbury in Part 18! Apparently someone named Pyramidhead added that information seven days after the episode aired, and was the first to add info to that page, and it hasn't been changed since. Yet no such verification of the kiss is included in either Cooper's or the Part 18 wiki fandom pages. Again, I don't think it occurred, but I can see why some of us remember it that way.

Furthermore, don't you think that with all the rabid scrutiny/analysis this series has received, both as it aired and then throughout the release of two very fine Blu-ray box sets, that this information would be easy to find, especially in the digital age? That you could simply google "differences between streaming and Blu-ray Twin Peaks" and find some Reddit post relatively easily? That it would have been proven by now or at least speculated in more depth? Maybe, I don't know. But that this isn't something people are regularly talking about is sort-of-evidence that multiple versions don't exist.

That said...even though I don't believe there are alternate versions aired in different territories or on different networks that were quickly taken down and replaced, it's too wonderful and strange a coincidence to completely ignore. IF Lynch/Frost did do something like this, not only would it be unprecedented as a meta-narrative coup, it would fit perfectly into the idea -- vague in the series and concrete in Frost's books -- that there is an official and "unofficial" version of events that only some of us remember. That throughout the series we are seeing but one of many versions of Cooper escaping the lodge as he is trapped in an endless, slightly shifting loop as he tries to find/save Laura and eradicate Judy. That collective memory is slowly being erased and overtaken by new memories caused by shifts in unstable time, the altering of events, the past dictating the future. Again, I don't believe this to be the case, but that we are talking about this is eerily similar to the notion of an "unofficial" version that nobody but Cole and Cooper remember, which Tammy reveals confusion about in Frost's Final Dossier.
Great post, and I agree with everything you said. I'm so glad you saved those initial streaming files. I do think that the Cooper/Diane sycamores scene is a perfect scenario for potential Mandela Effect (i.e., an instance of many people having the same false memory). Everything about the scene, the intimacy, the blocking, the performances, the camera angles, the touch to the cheek, lends itself to the notion that these two reunited lovers would kiss. It's natural human behavior ("you follow human nature perfectly"), and it's also a standard film convention. As LateReg says, the whole thing seems to be building to it, so it's natural for the mind to fill it in when remembering.

For whatever it's worth, in the interest of leaving no stone unturned, I went back and looked at the "Behind the Curtain" feature for Part 18, which shows Lynch talking to Kyle and Laura before shooting the scene. They go through the dialogue (the exchange of "Is it you?"s), and then following the dialogue, Lynch instructs them thus: "And you sort of, you sort of, on that, you sort of hold his hand or something. You're just gonna hold him. And you feel really good." Obviously they went a slightly different direction in terms of the physicality once they shot it, but there's no mention of a kiss.
 

eyeboogers

Glastonbury Grove
Apr 14, 2022
106
160
Occam's razor, it is highly unlikely that nothing was tweaked between the original broadcasts and the later Blu Ray release. To my eyes it seems that the color grade and effects in general got a major makeover that cannot be explained by resolution alone, things blend better. It is likely that the episodes were rushed to completion in time for their broadcast - that was a lot of hours of film. The death scene of Patrick Fischler's character is an example of an effect upgrade. These examples that have been mentioned above (do they kiss or not, does the badge appear again, was there always an orb) are exactly the kind of things that also existed in multiple versions on the old show - again because the episodes had to be ready for broadcast in a hurry, and then when there was a chance to revise and improve that was done.

I am also thinking of it as a screenwriter, and it would in those cases make sense to have those extra beats. Fx to have the badge showing be a setup-payoff. To have rule of three apply to the kiss/physical intimacy (at first it seems to DIane as if it is Cooper returned, by the third instance being the sex magic in the hotel room, at that point there is no Cooper left in that man).

It is very interesting that we have at least three people with a memory of the kiss in Glastonbury Grove. And again, the file I would have watched (which was not downloadable) was from whatever version had been serviced to HBO Nordic. And those original versions have all beeen swapped for what looks much more like the Blu Ray color grade (HBO no longer have the rights, in Scandinavia TPTR is now on ShowtimeParamount a shift that was timed with the Graceland non-event and all the rumours that were circulating then).
 
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AXX°N N.

Waiting Room
Apr 14, 2022
283
648
Occam's razor, it is highly unlikely that nothing was tweaked between the original broadcasts and the later Blu Ray release. To my eyes it seems that the color grade and effects in general got a major makeover that cannot be explained by resolution alone, things blend better. It is likely that the episodes were rushed to completion in time for their broadcast - that was a lot of hours of film. The death scene of Patrick Fischler's character is an example of an effect upgrade. These examples that have been mentioned above (do they kiss or not, does the badge appear again, was there always an orb) are exactly the kind of things that also existed in multiple versions on the old show - again because the episodes had to be ready for broadcast in a hurry, and then when there was a chance to revise and improve that was done.
This one is a very detectable difference--however, aside from maybe the color grade, I attribute it entirely to the heavy presence of compression with streaming vs. an uncompressed BD resolution. CGI effects really, really standout (in a bad way, imo) the more compressed the source. Things that look great in theater or a BD look terrible if you watch on some random streaming site at like 480p. But even 1080p streaming quality has a lot of detrimental difference compared to BD.
 
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